UnbornTao

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. The point of "becoming conscious" is that you're in touch with the nature of something beyond any possible state or condition you might be in. Whether you have cancer, are bored or angry, you're "conscious" of the subject matter, and circumstances shouldn't alter that fact when it is a solid apprehension. When using that word, people generally refer to their experience and the ability of their minds to make sense of that - or cognition, that is. When we inspect our own experiential understanding in an incredibly sobering way, we realize that we are generally pretty sloppy in our distinctions of each of these, which suggests we really don't know what we're talking about. We can't even make an honest assessment in the first place as we're likely to still be operating intellectually, failing to see what's in front of us. That said, whatever increases one's sensibility in that domain of experience is also a welcome change.

Hmm, reasonable questions. I do think the 'victim' frame isn't all that useful here, though. It might not be true that we are the victims of anything but of our own unconsciousness. This isn't meant to invalidate feeling victimized, occasionally, as that could be... appropriate or valid in some cases. So your questions would be: Who's angry? Why would you be angry? What are you angry about? Something to look into.

There's a discussion going on in this thread about anger: Also, fuck you. -- That said, why do you get angry? How do you see people and situations such that the end result is one of feeling angry? (Not that anger is good or bad, mind you.) Also, besides suppressing it or enacting it, can you feel it without acting it out? Obviously it seems convincing to us that, especially with our more volatile emotions, others or "the world" are at fault, and we're just simply reacting - as victims to the stimulus. This might not be entirely true, even though we may strongly believe this is the case.

State comes and goes. Our problem is how we're holding our conception of these things, and not knowing that (or when) they are conceptions. If we look, we'll find that we may well not know what is meant by consciousness, truly. "State of consciousness" - from the way you talk - is what I'd just call a state of mind, cognition, an experience of some kind. It's rather essential to the discussion, as it takes a stab at the heart of the matter. You may well think that Ramana getting drunk, following a certain breathing pattern, taking some drug, being knocked "unconscious" (etc., etc.) would either "increase" or "decrease" his "consciousness." In other words, as with many people, it's assumed that awakening is some sort of experience or state - a great feeling, a state of bliss and peace, a shift in our awareness, a new perception of some kind. I follow your logic, and it sounds reasonable, but it is based on flawed assumptions. Like I said, maybe even death doesn't really make a difference for Ramana, so what are we talking about? Can you see that this 'thing' can't be an experience, state, and so on? It is impossible to "find" or "cause" awakening in your experience, which is the place you'll look - and at the same time it is also possible, but this possibility is not logical or known. No practice or action does it. It is not a conditioned experience. Experience is all we have and know of - are aware of. What you talk about is stuff to do while waiting to make a leap. And what causes the leap? Mu? Perhaps not the best question. If you see someone promising enlightenment, or a "path" to awakening, I'd be wary of them - especially if they guarantee it. Most likely they're selling what people want, which is a good-sounding, pleasing, hopeful story, and as so-called spiritual people, we're no strangers to such things. Actually, just look for the other threads. Be one of the first here to put them to use.

@Miguel1 Our farts smell so much better. Spiritual farts.

I mean, obviously.

Is it, though? Seems to me like the anger is meant to manage the pain. Left alone, the hurt is just that - pain, and does not by itself imply or necessitate anger. That is, the pain comes first, the manipulation of anger, second. Feeling like a victim might occur at any point and throughout the process, yet it does not seem to be a requirement here (although we usually regard the anger to be caused by something else other than ourselves, so on a tacit 'victimization' feeling we agree.)

Solid advice - which doesn't necessarily mean that anger is "right" either; it's an emotion. A question to look at is: What is it? It's a pretty fundamental emotion. Hurt, in one form or another, underlies it.

Should have said that sooner.

Shit, not bad

Haha, good one. You got me pegged!

Ahhh, love it! It'll keep happening no matter how many times it's said, particularly when one thinks one is already over this dynamic or understands it.

The self-reinforcing nature of belief is incredibly strong. Amen! *obligatory disclaimer to "test it out" for yourself.

Ask: What is an effect? What is a practice? And what is awakening if not an effect, perception, experience, insight, change of state, good idea, or feeling?