Elisabeth

What kind of meditation did you do to achieve that effect, and how long did it take to set in? I'd like to get there, but it hasn't shown in my practice much.

Yes you can. You do need a lot of free time to contemplate. You go around thinking about it constantly for 3 months - imho no problem as long as you understand that you might have to reevaluate some of the stuff after a period of confronting your conclusions with practice. (For the record, I still haven't finished the course - I got stuck at a crucial point and then life happened and I got busy. IMHO it's better to spend too much time on it then run out of free time.)

Try expanding your circle by getting to know a local meditation group/center "hippie" people attending seminars on a related topic (doesn't have to be consciousness work, good joga, tantra, nutrition, maybe even productivity etc. events might give something) and so on. If you're in a bigger city that has a potential to form a group you should be able to find some of these just fine. Be open about what you want from personal development. What happens is you'll get to know new people and soon enough you'll get to know this other lonely weirdo who's also starting to do consciousness work. Also note that if you're not open about doing this stuff in your current circle, you don't know if there's anyone else there, so openness is really a requirement.

Oh, thanks. This actually clears out a lot of doubt. I kind of rejected the last video, so now that you say that the path of following life purpose might actually get me there, I don't have to reject it.

@Ryan_047 Feel with you. Sorry you have difficulties. I'm not an expert, haven't tried to do this by any "techniques", but I've observed my self-esteem and my depressed mind changing over the past few years, so I'll just give you a few points I observed in my experience. In this case, it's important to change both your outer circumstances and inner conditions. Trying to work just on one or the other (just therapy or just taking action) will likely fail to increase your confidence. Outer conditions do matter. Doing stuff in the real world, just achieving some of the goals you want to achieve is indeed big. It helps you gain a realistic idea of your strength. (Suggestion: You're doing probably well with learning about web pages here.) Achieving some of your goals will take some time, but it's probably still the quickest fix you can get. Gaining some of your independence is also huge. (Suggestions: Speak up to your parents about some stuff that bothers you, and deal with their disapproval. Why won't they let you get a job? Choose your university away from home so that you don't have to live with them anymore.) As for the inner game, it is very much a matter of shifting your thought patterns - positive thinking techniques do help here. You know your limiting beliefs about yourself. Say you have a recurring thought such as "I am weak and I will never achieve anything". You can shift it in two steps: Mental reframing. Take a close look at the thought and realize how it's false. What does it mean "anything"? Why never? Why would you even think the thought? Have you achieved things in the past? (Give yourself credit for attending school, engaging in a hobby etc. - they are not trivial.) Can you learn things? Then reframe it to something you can still believe. You can say something like "I have managed to cope with life's challenges up to now and even improved myself. I've done stuff [like XX] in the real world. There is no reason to see myself as weaker than anyone else, and with time, I can achieve [some of] my goals." Or even something more positive. Nipping negative thoughts in the bud. You can be mindful of your thoughts. If you observe the thought (and associated emotions of) "I will never achieve anything" pop up, pause yourself. Tell yourself it's false and think of the reframe. Then go do something positive. An important note here is, that you can only do that if you catch the thought early on - if you're already in a deap loop of despair, it's impossible. In that case, just try not to indulge with the negativity - you can't change it, but you don't have to feed it further. Perhaps take a nap, if possible, or try to get mindful of the body. Writing the thoughts out helps me sometimes too. It's a matter of practice. I've been doing basically this (although not always constructing a full reframe) together with getting some hope from Leo's videos, and it helps - even more than therapy on it's own - although it's a matter of years. This one sounds dangerous. Leo talks somewhere about the fact that how you view your future determines how you feel right now - and I find it to be very much true. I encourage you to rethink it and do some realistic plans to change your real world situation. And perhaps not just the big stuff - when I was really depressed what helped me a lot was taking charge of my nearest future and always have something to look forward to - a nice weekend plan perhaps with whatever (social) activity you enjoy. You can take hope in the fact that even if you don't do much focuses personal development and just follow the path of achievement that everyone else follows, your confidence tends to increase during your twenties. I'm trying to be practical here, but I'm still talking from one sole experience. Hope any of it helps.

@Franko @alyra@Haumea I'm sorry that I don't have the time to answer in detail, your posts (despite opposing view) are all on point. My experience was certainly not wasted. It took me at least two weeks to integrate it. I'm motivated to doing meditation at the moment. (I certainly don't regret leaving early though.) I'm doing some reading too. http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/essentials.pdf Chapter 9 is something I would have needed to know, although I wouldn't have understood before having a few hours of formal practice, so it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Take care (all of you who are reading this :)).

So, excited by Leos videos, a few references I had and my own (very inconsitent) practice I decided to go to my first meditation retreat. For reasons of time and availability, it was a buddhist vipassana retreat. A couple of things went wrong and I found myself going through hell and running home on day two (You're officially welcome to laugh at me.) Not that going through hell at times is wrong, it would be just, you know, better to be able to finish your retreat. So I just want to share some stupid mistakes of mine with you so that you can adjust your expectations and preparation. So, don't be naive. Realize that vipassana is not "do nothing". It's actual work. The retreat will hardly feel like a vacation. You have addictions and weaknesses? Are you afraid that not sleeping or not eating is going to be hard? Yeah, getting up at 4 hungry and practising for three hours is just as hard as you think. The hardship and the meditation do not cancel each other out. Together they amplify any doubt or internal problem you've got. And when I say amplify, I mean present you with the full extent of the demon all at once, until you cry and crumble. You think all meditation teachers can teach beginners well, and all Buddhists groups are kind of decent? Budhism isn't a religion so there aren't sects and individuals that haven't gone far astray from the spirit of the teaching? Think twice. And, even if you're lucky, the teacher or the philosophy may not sit with you well. Having said that, don't go uneducated, find out about the underlying philosophy too. Commenting a bit on the last point, I hardly have any comparison, but I think I had a bit of bad luck here. While I do understand that buddhist practitioners can be very hardcore, the people I ran into not only had a bunch of rules and were very strict enforcing them, they imho had some twisted and arbitrary interpretations, which were downrigt harmful. I also believe, and this is hard for me to say, that the teacher was only teaching people to go through the motions and not actually the heart of the technique. There was much emphasis on form, little on the mindset needed. There was so much emphasis on suffering being necessary, that there was no room left to enjoy the practice. The only thing I could see on the faces of fellow students if I looked around was suffering. No relaxing of the mind and the muscles. I have so little experience that I nearly let myself be convinced that this is the way it should be, but frankly, I believe these people actually did the technique wrong. I think the teaching was really bad. I have yet to find out, but I think meditation should have it's ups and downs, and a retreat should not be all about the dark side. I think me not staying at the retreat was as much a result of me reflecting on my goals and values and finding they are in sharp conflict with the teaching as presented, as it was surrendering or running away from my inner demons. But maybe I would have given up even in the most supporting setup, because I went too far too fast, and I was not ready for a retreat at all. I mean, if I have doubt, why not do a weekend first? Despite all the trouble I experience, after leaving I saw some of the positive effects of meditating and being on a clean(er) diet for two days. I guess it's hard to mess the practice up so badly that it doesn't do you any good. So I'm not giving up on meditation, although I'm sure as hell going to be choosing my teachers more carefully. Hope this helps one person at least. Tl ; dr : Set your expectations straight, learn the techniques, do some practice, and also check out the teacher/group properly before you decide to do your first retreat. You might go through hell and find yourself running for the hills if you don't. (I guess it might happen even if you do.)

@alyra It was just a suggestion based on my experience. I usually find myself pondering these things when I have to decide something specific, and than when I ask people they are all confused and can't relate. But when I go back to the specifics I get my urgent problem solved quickly. It has happened more than once. I do pursue happiness, and if you don't, I don't understand you - which doesn't say much about either of us.

@Haumea I've been thinking about your comment, I still am. Oh yes I did do stupid mistakes. I went uninformed and unprepared. I knew there were risks associated with doing the technique incorrectly, yet I trusted the teacher blindly to teach me well. I didn't check if the teaching is in line with my goals and values. I didn't build up the foundation of "knowing what and why am I doing" needed before I jumped into the adult stuff. It's like if you go do your shamanic plants with just the first guy who offers to brew them for you, with no preparation or aftercare - could be ok but could end up mad. Thanks for pointing out that I'm trying to control the process. And, yes, I am. Personal development has it's traps and I do believe we must steer consciously. I've had at least 3 friends of mine develop serious mental illness (psychosis and schizophrenia) by doing personal development stuff. Three people is a lot. That would be like ... ~6% of the people I know who do any of this stuff. I'd like to ask the experienced users here not to bagatelize this stuff as if everyone can push through everything. And my own first random encounter with vipassana ... years ago ... led to a serious depression lasting six weeks. It was one of the more useful depressions in terms of insight, yet it was six weeks giving me trouble at school. (And, it's also very easy to open up a depression which is not useful at all.) I care about my work right now. I do personal development to help me with it, not hinder me. I've got emotional problems that I want to handle better - I'm fragile and easily overcome by anxiety. I've got addictions. I've got trouble maintaining a proper working routine. I've got trouble with decision making. All great reasons to work on myself, and I've done a great deal of work over the years. Yet if the nature of the techniques (psychedelics, or holotropic breathing, or... I actually don't think vipassana goes into this category) is such that I can't control the pace, I'll leave it to the hardcore people and go search the PG-13 version. I'm not seeking enlightenment - I've watched Leo's videos on that and it doesn't appeal. So, maybe I'm a hopeless case, or maybe I have to walk the path of developing the ego for a few more years before I can understand that there's something to transcending it. Anyway, yeah, giving up control - not easy and not desired right now.

Do you want to tell us the specifics of the decision you're confused about here? I cannot answer your questions abstractly, but maybe talking about the very thing that's bugging you would give you some purely pragmatic insight

Frankly, I'm not sure, I never participated. Testing boundaries, I'd say. Since everyone is unsure, the group dynamics has to be established. But again, probably less of an issue on the university level. You'll be studying psychology, you figure out

20 is fine. Even if you "mess up everything", people get more gentle than in their teenage years. Plus, everyone is gonna have bigger goals and concerns on their mind when starting university. You'll relate just ok over the common subjects and struggles. First year university, at least for me, was socially easy. In my case, guys (the teenage math geeks) were more prone to simply ignore me, so my 'test' was more to show that I know a thing or two and that a girls voice has a value. It can still be a struggle doing my phd. But I've also enjoyed some pleasant attention in other male-dominated groups, and there also always was a guy or two who cared to help me out.

What's your age and subject of studies? I mainly have experience the other way round as a girl among a lot of guys. There's been something missing at times, but never a real problem. From what I've observed girls can be a little ... mean ... to the only guy among them, mocking him to test his reactions, especially if he's good looking and especially at a certain age. But. Most times you won't encounter any trouble at all. So don't be too concerned about this. Do what feels good to you, be prepared for a handful of surprising reactions (expecially at the beginning as the dynamics establishes), but trust that given enough time the group will accept you just fine without you trying to fit yourself into some kind stereotype or behavior that goes against your grain.

I don't hang out with these people. I think they are toxic. If they're part of a group but the group as a whole works for me, I'm just polite but don't speak to them too much. If a group is too poisoned by someone like that, I choose other groups, with regrets maybe. Having said that, I don't care, if they're "spoiling my reputation". If the people around choose to listen to them and disrespect me, they're not worth my time. That's how I deal anyway. It would be a little harder with family members who can't be cut out easily.

Congratulations on finishing. What happened on day five, after you pushed through your worst?

Hi all, thanks for your comments and sorry for not answering, I was enjoying my vacation offline. It seems people are reading and I'm getting some feedback, so I'll comment a bit more. I second this sentiment Thank you for these comments. I've been thinking about them. And I ... don't think I understand fully. There is certainly something memorable about the moment when in the midst of crippling doubt and anxiety I realized that all I'm being asked to (and trying to) do is sit and walk in an empty room in an old house (and being somewhat - ok, a lot - hungry), meaning all the rest is indeed just in my head, and I understand how this kind of insight will come to you most easily at a retreat. I do also understand that I can't work on negative emotions without feeling them. Still, they probably shouldn't be the focal point of the retreat? Surely other things like relaxed awareness are more of the goal? I think it was actually a good decision to quit. I was at my limit, I wasn't sure I'd be ok in the coming months had I stayed. I had cried for hours, I was shaky and stopping to be able to direct my focus. It would have been a traumatic experience had I stayed any longer, hindering me from doing future work. To be more specific, I was in conflict with the practice (in multiple areas, I'll just describe one). I've had depression in the past, from which I've worked my way up to a place where my life is more or less together and at times enjoyable. I'm pretty sure the depression was at least partly due to pushing myself too much, trying to fulfil outside expectations, stepping over my own limits. Being kinder to myself, learning to manage the load I take on and focus more on the pleasurable aspects of life has been a great help. What I was being asked to do here was exactly what has been so problematic in the past - follow rules to the letter, hence push myself beyond limits, no control about the pace with which I do the work. I didn't find enough reasons to do that, I didn't trust that this process would actually do me any good, and I didn't know how much to trust the teacher. It was in fact really interesting to look at that conflict (so I admit to getting some insight this way), yet two days was really enough. I conclude that I wasn't ready to do the retreat.

Ah, and an extra tip for girls. If you really are to go to your meditation retreat unprepared like me, do it on the day before your period. You'll see the increased effects of ... everything ... pretty fast

@SOUL Thanks for discussing, I'm out now. Our frameworks seem so different that we're missing each other completely.

Are you young and maybe still dependent on your parents? That might play a role. I know you are aiming way deeper than this, but being actually able to provide for yourself... helps. It's like 'Oh. I live alone and I haven't died.' Also, I'd suggest practising just being you/ being different. Simple things, like ordering a different meal than everyone else at a restaurant or telling your friends about actulized.org . It won't help with the fear of death, but it will show you that social acceptance is actually much less fragile than what you probably think now (or alternatively that you can survive the loss of some of it). edit: haven't read the previous post before writing mine, and agree completelly

@SOUL I'm calling you out on spreading confusion (and not knowing it). I'll continue a bit, but ... I mean all this kindly, ok? The discussion is inspirative to me, I'm thinking about the meaning of physical and non-physical now. So your new post, it's still very confusing. Quantum is the singular, so one quantum of energy, two quanta of ch arge etc. (And the "qantum" in quantum physics/mechanics is used as an adjective, as far as I can say with my limited English literacy.) Notice that I speak about quanta of something. A quantum is basically a small chunk with defined size, or the smallest step. It is often left to context and not specified what quanta are we talking about, but a quantum doesn't automatically mean a photon. I simply do not understand. A different set of phenomena from what? I'd say quantum mechanics is a subset of quantum theory or quantum physics, and forgive me if I've used them interchangeably. If you want to go with quantum physics = the phenomena not described by classical (19.century) theories, I can go with that. I guess being mysterious is subjective. For me, the concepts of "force" or "energy" (not to mention "entropy") taught in basic high school classes are just as mysterious as the concept of the wavefunction. Hence, much of the quantum phenomena are described just as well as the motion of a mass points and just as mysterious. I guess what happens during the process of measurement could maybe called mysterious, or just counterintuitive and not well understood. I'm still not sure what you want to say, and likely disagree on many levels. First, I think "non physical" is really a term generating confusion. When Leo talks about non physical phenomena he's probably not talking about quantum mechanics. There are phenomena which are really only described by quantum mechanics and are perfectly observable. Take the double-slitt experiment. The interference pattern you see is predicted by QM, and it's mathematics is quite clear. If you insist that there is something "nonphysical" happening as the photons pass through the slits and interfere, well, that's an interpretation. I don't think there is something to be discovered which is "causing" the effects of quantum mechanics. I mean, yes, there can be a deeper description - but, then what causes these deeper phenomena? Can you see the infinite regress? Of course we can only have math/physics theories that describe observable effects. We can't get deeper by making (mathematical, or any other) concepts. Quantum physics is still physics with all it's limitations. Does that clear up my point a little? Now, I may be wrong on this one, but from the little I've learned about Penrose and Bohm they were pointed out here, they are very different. Penrose is trying to find the origin of consciousness in the brain. He's basically trying to explain with quantum mechanics why we feel self-aware. Maybe they'll even succeed one day, but they are staying within the scope of science. If Leo is to be believed on how reality works, they are going to fail at grasping it. Bohm is a real mystic. The ideas behind quantum theory inspire him to see that reality is really fucking weird. (Of course he also tried to take it the other way, but his mathematics seems to be at least partly debunked.) Kind of like Leo uses the ideas of epistemology or mathematical theories of infinity, or like Christian mystics contemplated God. They are not it , but they point the mind into some direction. He might have been going in the direction of enlightenment (or maybe he got lost in conceptual land, I totally don't know). I do believe you can use quantum mechanics in this way, especially if you are an experienced user and thinker. Sorry for the length people. We seem to have hijacked the original topic a little, I hope username doesn't mind.

@SOUL I thought your post was insightful overall, but since I've boldly positioned myself as an expert on the science of quantum mechanics in this thread O:) , I need to call you out on this last paragraph. You make it sound like "quantum" is some underlying mysterious nonphysical substance, which is an idea I can't support (otherwise I'd be contributing to this "extrapolating into mystical ideas and claiming it's an universal truth", and worse, using scientific terms to seemingly validate those "truths" - nothing wrong with mystical ideas per se). If I've misunderstood, please explain what you mean. If I should make a guess, while there is no substance called "quantum", there is something called "wavefunction" or "state" which indeed can't be measured directly/fully - you loose some information during measurement (for those of you who are familiar with complex numbers, you measure the amplitude, but not the phase). This wavefunction is something we use to describe an electron (or another system) and the way it behaves and interacts (where the phase does play a role in interactions). Is that what you meant - that there are some properties of matter which can't be measured directly? (but sometimes can be reconstructed from what is measured?)

@cetus56 Unfortunatelly no, not an introduction. I'm not sure what that guy talks about. He doesn't show any connection to the mathematics. I don't know if his claims about reality are coming from direct experience like Leo's, or if he's just presenting a bunch of beliefs. Like this it's just a bunch of words. But I looked him up - he's the Bohm from Aharonov-Bohm effect, which is indeed one of the weird discoveries described in today's QM textbooks, basically telling us that magnetic vector potential, previously introduced as a mere mathematical construct, is real in the quantum world; so I guess he's had some things to think about. Going mad from glimpsing the infinity like Cantor maybe Some of his claims seem to be counteracted by the Bell inequality, but maybe there's something there. So thanks for pointing him out, hopefully I can pursue this a little further when I have more time.

As you can tell I haven't done deep consciousness work and err on the rationality side, but from another perspective: Realize quantum theory is done within the framework of physics, meaning 1) within the rationalist paradigm, and 2) it is by it's nature a conceptual and descriptive theory. Why would you expect it to illuminate consciousness? Or the nature of reality - the same reality that according to Leo can only be understood through personal direct experience? QT is designed to describe the behaviour of particles on micro scale --- although to do that it had to replace particles by much less intuitive objects like probability fields. To be fair, I haven't studied any evidence presented by the people who do link quantum theory and consciousness; if anyone has good material I'll be grateful for the reference. The only thing that came my way which seems to have thought put into it is something I found through this forum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6HLjpj4Nt4 . (Please realize this is not yet a hard proof of anything - while the observed phenomena are quite confusing, and the interpretation presented is compelling, it is just one of the interpretations.) So as I said, there might be a link, but whoever is telling you he does "quantum healing" or the like is just trying to sell you something edit: Read up on the delayed quantum eraser experiment. There's no problem with causality under slightly different interpretations of quantum mechanics.

My take is clear: With very few exeptions, any time anyone who isn't a physicist says the word "quantum", you can be sure there is no physics behind it. He's just trying to be interesting. Don't trust new agers who talk about quantum theory. There are certainly mind-boggling counterintuitive paradoxes within quantum theory, but the leap of connecting anything that quantum theory has forecast with consciosness or thought is speculative at best from the rational point of view. Not impossible - just imho not understood, since there are few people who'd properly know about both consciousness and quantum theory. Physicist can only exactly compute systems with something like two particles, or an ideal crystal, perturbatively a little more complex things, like an atom or superfluid liquid with quantum theory. You can see how far we'd have to go to "explain" the universe. P.S.: Now I'm just expecting Leo to beat me by interpreting newest QT experiments

Eh, maybe I'm being totally pain avoiding and comfort-seeking here, but my answer would be "Of course you should switch jobs!" That is, provided you do have other options. But it's your first month and you find it terrible and you likely have a bad manager - so what is there wrong with trying to make your life easier? I mean, this is not running away from something important, this is securing the best conditions you can have for yourself - and I'm pretty sure you do have job options where people won't yell at you, so look for them and if you find one just switch. I wouldn't be staying in a bad job if I could help it.