Elisabeth

Depression ... well my personal experience has been that real life changes along with gaining more understanding is much more helpful. (Though I haven't done all that much meditating.) I basically needed to outgrow my problems. But meditation, even very low-key 20min before sleep helps tremendously with anxiety, not to the point of curing it fully, but reducing by more than just a bit. So it's just one tool.

I ... don't know really that much about the philosophy, but I have some libertarian friends and I've read through an anarchokapitalist blog to get the gist of that one. Through my half-informed but very broad perspective libertanianism seems like a mix of orange and green. If you put more emphasis on the non-violence and voluntary aspects of these philosophies, you go more green. People who only emphasize the personal freedom aspect make it orange. I don't know how libertarianism looks from yellow. I guess some more limitations become apparent. I have a pretty standard set of objections towards libertarianism, which colored now by (somewhat stereotypical) spiral dynamics thinking goes something like Yes, the state uses force. Force is needed to controll red and really, the excesses of any other color. Blue can't really handle libertarianism. A lot of people need explicit rules because in a world without, they are lost. So they will not respect a society without rules. Likewise, a lot of people need extrinsic motivation. They are not in touch with intrinsic motivation. Orange will use the absence of rules to further exploit Green breeds the idea of non-violence, but they are overly idealistic to believe that people will take care of each other on a purely voluntary basis. Maybe in a society of green-yellow libertarianism is a good arrangement. I know this is not a precise formulation of anything but you get the idea. I'm not saying some libertarian ideas can't be usefully implemented, but by and large I think it overlooks the necessity of the current system for people who are either in a disadvantage or at stages bellow high orange.

Orange solving the problems it has created in an orange way. http://www.dissertationhelp.uk/

@Santiago It would be nice to know you're following along...

@ValiantSalvatore Thanks for elaborating. I mostly agree and I'm not offended at any assumptions you made My only point was, I think the test has the scales somehow shifted, that's why we all get large percentages of turquise. I may be wrong.

I got 13% both blue and orange, 20% green, 33% yellow and 20% turquise. We have to keep in mind their levels are probably defined differently than how Leo teaches the levels. I've got the feeling that their "turquise" basically fits into Leo's green. They call it "global view" but it has nothing to do with transcending concepts as Leo suggests. Their "yellow" might be just an advanced orange - after all they call it "win-win" behavior. I'm sure I should have much more orange

I think you're early orange, at least in your online appearance. Way too extravagant for blue. Way too much showing off. Maybe you were blue not so long ago or you're still blue if real-life punishment is around the corner, but right here, you're trying to solidify your identity by these stupid teenage provocations. Sounds like orange. Anyway, if you're leaving now, good luck.

Here's another teachers take on these kinds of methods which youtube happened to offer me

I agree. I love spiral dynamics - ever since Leo released his first video, I've made many interesting observations and it has helped my thinking about people a lot. But, I think that taking spiral dynamics as a linear model is too simplistic. People are always a mixture of stages, more or less pronounced, and also, it's not the only axis of developpment. I think since spiral dynamics is mainly a model of perspectives, there's a lot of development of avareness possible within each stage. You can develop qualities like mindfulness and concentration (and also compassion?) to deep levels, while being completely in blue. That would be christian or buddhists monks. Also, not everyone who "is" at a higher stage has integrated the lower stages to the same extent. You can be born in a "hippie" family and really live green values, such as compassion, ecology, moral relativity and plurality of perspectives, but you could be terrible at asserting yourself since you skipped most of orange, as well as treat some of the green memes in a totally dogmatic blue way . It does get confusing. But you can go like "Oh, this person has a blue perspective on this particular topic. That means, if his opinion is going to evolve, it's probably gonna have to go through orange to green and first get more accepting of individuality before really feeling into other people." Or "This person is totally not seeing what's going on here. How can such a smart person be so blind to the bigger picture? Um, I guess he doesn't respect where people at are yet. He's just a brilliant thinker in orange. He needs to step more intogreen and yellow. Is there any way I can offer a green perspective?"

You seem to know what you'll do, then

I appreciate that you also want to help them, but admit that your main motivation in pushing the change is selfish. You want responsible parents who take as much care of themselves without their children as possible, so that they don't bother you. I think that's ok, but it's a different problem than helping them. I agree it's a boundary problem. How to tell a parent that you won't be helping them if they are in trouble? Well, that's tough. It might lead to a confrontation. You need to figure out what you are willing to help with and what you are no longer willing to tolerate. IMHO it's better to tell them in advance, than in the moment of emergency - that would be real tough. A boundary is a rule of conduct for yourself. Communicate them to your parents. You can use them as leverage, but only if you mean it. Don't do empty threds. Put up boundaries like "Look, I am bothered by being asked for money over and over again. I will not pay any of your medical bills if you have no health insurance. If you want to know how to make a health insurance contract, you can call me. " Remember, these are changes you're doing for you. They may be able to follow, or not. And, don't put too high expectations on them. These are your self-actualization and living standards, not theirs. It's entirely possible that one day you end up rather paying their insurance for them than watching them not pay their bills over and over again or abandoning them. That may be poor boundaries, but it's also human.

Thanks. That helps.

@Leo Gura What's the positive expression of blue? I remember you mentioning zen buddhism in the initial spiral dynamics video, so I assume it is possible to grow wisdom, even enlightment while still being very much blue (or any other stage)? What are some good examples of positive, high-functioning blue people and arrangements? (preferably atheistic - and yes, there is such a thing as atheistic blue, in my country at least) Is it the reliable colleague who always comes on time and cares about doing a decent job? Is it someone who gives their life to educating poor children? Is it a before-17th-century philosopher? (I'm not quite sure.) It seems to me people get really focused on the shortcommings now, and on the limitations they have bumped into. Which is understandable. But whatabout the empowerment coming from this stage?

Imagine a student of martial arts who is just discovering how his art connects to mind, body and emotional awareness. Imagine a man who can finally admit to his weaknesses and ask for help. Imagine the relief people around him feel. Imagine a man going for a vision quest to get more direction and purpose and be a better person, alone and fasting for days. Imagine a man taking responsibility for his behavior towards his family, society and nature, but not out of a sense of obligation, but out of love. Are they weak? Or are they worthy of respect?

@Emerald Thank you, this is great. I have an urge to like take it and proudly post it on my facebook wall to end some of the arguments in my social circle, but of course that would not work (and not just becasuse nobody would take the time to study spiral dynamics and think independently if it fits or not ). I have a slightly different take on some of the stages, but this is to be expected. Anyway, it's a great illustration how people and movements are rarely truly at one stage at a time. And great historical context too!

I can see how green and orange motivations get mixed together. I think it's natural. Taking "me too" reports so seriously that no honest errors are allowed and the presumption of innocence gets thrown out of the window completelly - that's taking the "green" idea of equality too far. Accusing your boss or colleague of sexual harrassment out or revenge, to overthrow power and gain power yourself - that's the worse side of orange corrupting a green movement

Thanks. I recognize some parallels, though I'm not quite that far. This is probably how it should be - you take responsibility for yourself including owning your part for your relationships with all those great people around you.

Can you elaborate how you got there? Btw. I'm on board with relationships being a very basic need. There may be a few who transcend relating to other humans (I wonder if this is done by developping strong internal relationships to oneself, nature, god or existence), but for most of us, good social connectedness is probably a great strategy.

Holotropic breathwork seminar Went to one 5 days ago. There are some differences in the approach of the facilitator (trained by Grof) and Leo's technique, so I'm gonna write a bit those differences and a bit about my experience. So first, the breathing instructions. According to the facilitator there are two main possible strategies for breathing: either deep breathing with your full breath, which suffices to be done for a very short time for effects to show (~2 minutes), or breathing moderatelly without the pauses between breaths, which needs to be done for a longer period (~20minutes, that would be what Leo is doing). No recommended way of breathing (ie chest or belly). Everyone gets to choose their own strategy. The objective is to breathe intensely until something starts to happen in your body, then go with the process - which can be done even without breathing (recommended for better concentration), start breathing again if the process is slowing down - no need to breathe intensely for 2,5 hours straigth. The music was pretty loud and rythmic, and supposed to guide people through the process a bit. First very dynamic upbeat to help you breath intensely and get into the energy, than still intense but slower and more gentle carrying you away (at one point I noticed an angel-like choir, 7th chackra energy song), than getting more earthly There was an iportant element of setting an intention for the ritual. In the morning we shared what specific topic we wanted to work on in our lives. It's recommended to set your intention beforehand, but once you start breathing, don't think about it and let go of expectations. "The arrow is already flying." Bodywork. The facilitators are helping people through their process with gentle (or not so gentle) touch, letting you press against their hands if you need to press against something. A lot of people reported after breathing that this was incredibly helpful. It's also a safety-net you've got on the seminar, that they will come around and help you if you get stuck somewhere (like, in a paralysis) and don't know your way back. Drawing right after your breathing session (you get color pencils and a paper with a faint circle to draw a "mandala" or whatever into it, you don't even have to get up to get it), and the subsequent sharing, helps anchor your experience. My breathing experience I set an intention to understand the topic of certainty/incertainty, and even before I started breathing an insight came that it's actually about trust and self-trust. I chose breathing intensely in short bursts in the first dynamic phase. I wasn't lying down most times either, rather sitting, standing on all four or moving my body around to help me breathe and honor the rather intense energies in my body (I had some tension and frustration in the days prior, also the music just made me wanna move). I had no real cramps though my forearms were getting stiff. I was letting myself get carried away and move however my body wanted me to, but I was fully there. At one point, and I don't remember the crossover, my body simply shut down and went into a deep relaxation. I was lying on my back and the thumb and index finger on my left hand formed a circle (no conscious intention there). My body went into sleep paralysis, and my mind was slow. (Reminds me of yoga-nidra.) First I got some fragments of 'mundane' thoughts like the noise you get in meditation from the stuff you think about all day, then the mind got a little more focused and I remembered my intention. I didn't do anything with it, I just remembered it, and it felt like it was sinking in. The whole 'sleep' state felt really regenerating - like deep healing forces within the body and the psyche were allowed to take over. I don't know how long I was in that state, maybe 10 - 30 minutes, then I started slowly to wake up. When I moved, the helpers came around with body work, and I had a huge emotional release. I remember one first pressing against my shoulders, than holding my head and rocking it gently (I imagine it really could have reminded the body of being a baby which can't hold it's head yet), and another providing pressure against my legs. I was holding my belly and pressing with my legs and expressing all the tension inside me, I knew I was doing it and could stop if needed and at the same time I still wasn't quite there, still half in sleep-trance, not fully "me" doing it. And at one point I screamed intensely and it was like deep pain and desperation was leaving my belly (while at the same time the rest of the body just felt well and safe). This was a profound release that wouldn't have happened without bodywork. Then I kind of woke up already and went to the toilet (with a person helping me a bit, because the floor made sudden swings from right to left ), got back and spend some more time breathing and resting. (I had the need to lie on my belly.) Then the facilitator came around to ask how I feel and I got my mandala. The aftermath: I slept for 12 hours that night, and I have more need for sleep and relaxation. Relaxation feels really healing when I do it. I'm more sensitive (I have to be careful with sensory overload), but generally calm and in a good mood. I have had little anxiety since the seminar. And I think something deep regarding my intention of certainty/self-trust might have shifted slightly. It's still too early to judge if there are any permanent shifts. (The facilitator said the process is running usually for another two weeks.) Conclusion: The seminar is totally worth it. Breathing at home is great, but you can let go of control more fully at the seminar and they are able to facilitate emotional releases with bodywork. The technique felt safe to me, for me as I am today, although it's advanced in the sense that people who are very afraid of their own emotions (as I was a few years ago) could run into trouble. Intention is important, so is trusting the healing forces inside you to do their work.

Not sure what to say, but I'm thinking of what my ex bf said about a game. (Unfortunatelly I'm not sure what game it was, I haven't played it.) It was some kind of rpg computer game, the main character was immortal and searching for a way to die. My bf was deeply impressed by the game and it's deep dialogues, he said there actually was a philosopher writing/consulting the story line, and they covered these deep topics of life and death and seeking, and maybe some others. If this is possible, your game could carry pretty much any message.

How able are you to sit with her in her pain? She has told you she wants to be seen and understood. How far can you go with being present, how much can you appreciate who she is even given injury, pain, hopelessness and suicidal thoughts? Allow anything that's happening? You can try. It may help eventually. Although chances are, if you haven't gone through significant pain yourself, you won't be capable of that emotional connection and acceptance (please don't make this to a limiting belief, but don't beat yourself up if that's the case either). There's no right way. You may be able to stay with her, or you might reach the point where you have to withdraw for your own sake. Do seek a therapist yourself, if you have the opportunity - because supporting someone who's depressed IS hard. I'm not sure if anything that Teal Swan has to say helps any. Maybe you watch it to have an idea, maybe recommend them to your gf if that doesn't come across as "trying to change her". But acceptance and actually being with her where she is - and having the trust in her own healing powers that she's lost - is far more important. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXi7vcnvl5c&t=762s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Kn4f6Mgks&t=17s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPzO5AC_Dlg

If you come unprepared it's shit, if you come prepared... what happens? What kind of preparation has helped you in the past, if any? The reason why I'm asking, we have no idea from your post if changing your attitude somehow helps, or is you met a shitty terapist (or just one you don't click with). Personally, I had two good therapeutic relationships, but in the search for the second one I had to reject like 3-4 therapists who just didn't seem helpful. (One was plain too stupid to follow me, the other a rigid old lady whom I didn't trust to support me, a third one will be great but just too inexperienced.) If you don't feel like your therapist facilitates understanding, and/or awareness of the body and emotions, and/or learning of new skills like relaxation, then change the therapist.

IMHO they are not exclusive. You can do one AND the other. Maybe not at the same time. But you can go and do photographs and videos and travel the world, and then maybe in 10 years you settle down, have a family and become a life coach. Also, frankly, I like the second purpose better. It's actualized personal development vs. just learning and talking about it. You'll get extraordinary experience and have excellent video skills to use later. And, you can already include the first one. "Help people break through limiting beliefs" is just one facet of "inspire people to live to their fullest". Of course, I can be way off and you have to run my words through your intuition to see if what I say is true for you.

@Slade A ... bit. An important bit meaning the difference between despair and feeling joy and satisfaction sometimes. I haven't done much on the "changing habits" part, so maybe that's why. But what I have gained during the years is a lot of body and emotional awareness (says the girl who's unable to handle formal vipassana). Also, my concepts have shifted a lot. All that means that when depressed, which still happens to me 1) I can feel it in my body, which means I know what the fuck is going on and don't just get caught in the "worthless and hopeless never gonna be better" thinking loop. I can't make it pass but I can make decisions respecting my own current state. 2) I can see some meaning in my suffering as I believe that by going through it and understanding it the particular problem eventually losses it's edge I've done that through westernized yoga and psychotherapy. Learning bodily relaxation (at yoga) was huge for me. I took it a step further with Leo's "do nothing" meditation. Feeling my body throughout my day in and off itself does bring a feeling of satisfaction. I've also unlocked feelings of ecstasy which were unknown to me before. I've mainly done that through conscious sexuality. These shifts, although sometimes they disappear and leave me depressed, hopeless and confused again, gave me a lot of hope that things CAN be better.

@Sine Hm, thinking about it, I have not read books specifically concerning relationships. I've heard good testimonials for "The Five Languages of Love" - it's a classic, but I don't know how deep it is, maybe a summary is good enough. I've read :Nonviolent communication: by Marshall Rosenberg, which I would recommend as a good source developing empathy. I've also read "The Art of Loving" by Erich Fromm, which is not really practical, but it is deep verging on philosophy. And then there's also Teal Swan