Salvijus

Yea, i was trying to say this also. I think u misunderstood the statement here. I meant laws of physics can't be invented. Nobody can invent gravity. We can only discovere it and describe it using the language of math. So it's a discovery. I think it's solid argument. (Or maybe i misunderstood smth idk )

Zero is eternal nature of existence actually. Nothingness is the source of all things. Nothingness is one thing that can't be eliminated from existence. It never comes and never goes.

Little bit of explanation to clarify what was sayed above. If we entered a state of zero interpretation and mind activity. We'd still know we exist. We'd exists either as nothing or as everything. That's why number 0 and 1 are fundamental. Also there're 2 dimensions of life, yin and yang, positive and negative, permenant and impermenant, relative and absolute. That gives a sense of duality and contrast, and all other numbers come from this. (Ultimately yin and yang are one, and also two at the same time, it's confusing, no need to go there) Therefor numbers are part of existence quite fundamentally

0 exists indipendent of human experience actually. And oneness exists indipendent of human interpretation. 0 is the only real number, and zero can be called 1. We can say existence is absolute 1oneness without using our mind. And we can find that 0 is the source of existence. But to become self aware, to become aware of oneness, to recognize zero as zero, some sense of duality has to exist for oneness to recognize itself. And there duality was born, yin and yang was born. And out of duality all other numbers came. Therefore mathematics is in existence irrelevent of human experience. ?

@UnbornTao yea it's debateble, im not sure myself what would be the final correct answer. And it hurts my brains now Reality be like.

@UnbornTao yea, it would be very complicated if we started to be ontological. Because from absolute level nothing exists, nothing ever happens, there's no such thing as discoveries and inventions. Without interpretion of reality there's just nondual eternal samadhi. But that's not very helpful for this topic right now imo ? i'd rather stay on a relative human level now and would define "discovered" as that which was found by observation. And "invention" that which doesn't exist, like a pure fanatsy, scy fy movie. For example physics is not an invention because if it were i could just invent new laws every day. What about math then? Can i invent new math every day? I don't think so. I think it's existencial. Here's why i think so. Someone who understands mathematics in a human world would understand alien mathematics just the same way except that they would be using different symbols. But the fact that u'd be able to understand it means it's not just human invention. It's something universal. Because all alien civilizations would arrive at exacly the same equations imo.

Discovered no? Sombody observed reality and find out how it functions so it's discovered. Yea context is everything i think. In nondual samadhi there're no concepts and no such things as math and physics. But that's irrelevent for this topic now imo.

That's not really a good argument that proves that mathematics is invented imo. Because try to apply the same argument on physics. Is physics invented or discovered? It's definitely not a human invention but a keen obervation of the laws of physicality. So it is discovered. And yet if we apply the same question (Is there physics without any human interpretation) the answer will be no. But that's obviously not true. So there's a flaw in the argument then i would say.

There's only one way to respond to it. Wazzuprheehdjdjdjdjdndjskwiaia!

I think the real question is: is logic invented or discovered? If logic exist in the universe then so does mathematics because they are the same thing really. But somehow existence is both logical and illogical at the same time. That becomes confusing. But since logic is part or existence. So math would be also part of it, not something invented.

Is logic discovered or invented? I would argue that logicality of existence is discovered. And so is mathematics because mathematics is just an expression of logicality of existence. Existence follows certain laws. Everything that fits into these laws we call logical, everything that doesn't fit into the natural laws we call "doesn't make sense" So mathematics is basicly the science of logic. The science of making sense about existence. So it is discovered. Only the symbols and the language of mathematics are invented. But what that language discribes is not invented, it exists. We express the logicality of existence and its laws through the language we call "mathematics". Therefor mathematics is a way of describing existence not inventing things that are not there. That would be my perspective for now. Interesting question really.

Existing as a non physical thing maybe. Like pure awareness for example. A dimension that has no physical attributes but still exists. Almost like space. If we removed all the physical elements in the existence would space still exist?

Dbz rules. I constantly see references to enlightenment and spiritually in these anime. I love it. There's one anime called yi nian yong heng full of daoists spirituality in it. But it could be too advanced for this forum. Only those who understand something about daoist esoteric spirituality can watch that show and enjoy it like i do. ?

Lol. This one is better. ... Flow state as explained by Whis in this video: Action that comes from pure impulse. When fear, hesitation and all egoic efforts to control the outcome are gone. Then life is moving life without any blocks of the ego. It's also called wu wei in daoism. Learning to follow the currents of vital force and becoming absolutely in sync with existence that there is absolutely no delay between movement of intention/prana and actual manifestaion of the action. At the end Whis says energy goes so fuckin high that all duality dissapears. Total oneness. Fight is happening without a fighter. Just cosmos dancing. So beautiful. I cry every time watching that video ? (not really)

This is nice, im sensing some kind of consensus here? ? good. I dislike when conversations end in conflict. Tcare I understand the point about there being no seperate controller of things btw. It’s a good perspective as long as people dont start to deny that spiritual practices are a cause of disillusionment from false identity, and drinking water quenches thirst relatively speaking.

@VeganAwake Lol, veganawake is here ? I know if I start a convo with u it's going to be total madness ill pass:D

I understand the point that everything is happening on its own without a controler. Still when i ask if water quenches thirst, you do all this unnecessary mental gymnastics to avoid accepting the fact that spiritual practices cause a shift in perception. Yes drinking water and spiritual practice is part of the dream. We all understand that. But this dream is not random, this dream follows certain rules and laws of physics. And drinking water quenches thirst is a law. Same way there are causes that change a shift in perception and brake down illusions. What is written here makes so much sense that even a fool could agree about it. Yet u still find a way to disagree. Why? I think some people just have "disagree at all cost" mentality. Trying desperatly not to admit simple things bc it hurts their sense of ego too much as if agreeing with their worst enemy (me in this case). The wise thing for me to do would be to stop pushing this further and wish u well. Tcare ?

I see your point here. But what if i asked u what causes quenching of thirst, would u say water or big bang? Bc both answers are true ultimately. But to say water quenches the thirst is much more practical imo. In the same manner i would say spiritual practices cause shift in indentity from false to real, not the big bang ? tho technically both answers are acceptable in a way.

@axiom im loving your tone right now, it's really gentle without any triggered emotions So what in your opinion causes the shift in perception and identity from mind-body to pure witness if not spiritual practice? Didn't u have your insight while doing vipassana? Doesn't that prove the whole point?

This is true. Everything is appearing and disappearing and there is no "me" inside it. Even spiritual practice is appearing and disappearing. All this is true and i agree with it. The problem is it's not our direct experience yet. We identify ourselves with a limited false sense of psychological self precisely because we are not aware of our true nature as pure witness. One who becomes aware of our true nature of pure witness no longer identifies with anything that is impermenant. That's a radical shift in perception right there! And this shift won't happen by intelectual understanding. It only happens when awareness penetrates all illusions and false identities. And it just so happens that spiritual practices cause this disillusionment and brake all false identities. See. There's no escapeing spiritual practice. Because that's only thing that will brake false perception. And truthful perception is the only thing that counts. Intelectual understanding is as good as toilet paper. (I see u have slightly different arguments then classic neo advaita. I like that )

Id rather teach real neo advaita, the one that j krishnamurti was teaching. It sounds similar. But it's woooorlds apart. Removing the flaws of current neo advaita could actually give rise to a very powerful teaching that very few have the brains to understand. That's basicly krishnamurti's teaching in essence.

Lol ?

@Raptorsin7 i wish i could talk to people face to face in real live setting. This topic is so so tangled and messed up it takes enourmous eloquence (that i don't have) to explain something in an easy to understand way over the text format. And on top of that u have to deal with very defensive deniers that have disagree at all cost attitude and put zero effort in understanding what is written it's just impossible. Someday maybe ill explain in more depth and with deeper clarity and conviction the flaws of neo advaita over the live setting.

Nah, watch and see how dishonest and defensive they can be. Even if i sayed 2+2=4 they would still find a way to disagree ? It's like they put 100% effort in disagreeing with me without even caring if it makes sense or no ? disagree at all cost is their attitude. Edit. I think i misunderstood what u sayed but nvm.