Salvijus

To extend a little bit on this. The other way to end suffering is to see everything as meaningless void. If you don't give any meaning to pain because you're totally aware that it's nothing at all. Then that will also be the end of suffering and resistence. These are the two ways to end the suffering. Either you accept everything as a part of yourself and you love it all including pain. Or you see everything as utterly meaningless void including pain. That also causes the end of resistence and suffering. This makes very much sense to me. Please consider this. Don't dismiss this in one breath ?

Now about suffering and pain. What causes suffering? I would say, if you are totally identified with everything you will turn even pain into joy. You sayed everything is love. So even pain is love if one totally accepts pain as a part of his identity. My claim is. One who accepts the entire universe as his identity even pain. He will not resist the pain. He will love the pain and will experience the end of suffering. I am not trying to provoke anyone I genuinly think this is logical.

Okey let me get this straight. Yeah, everything is me, even pain is me. But also everything is nothing. And nothingness is my true identity. Now what causes this realization that void is my true identity? Imo It's an intense awareness that sees all phenomena as passing except nothingness. Nothingness remains the same. When one sees that everything is passing including body and mind. He realizes that I'm nothing at all. This causes one to identity with the Formless awareness. At the same time realization happens that everything that arise including pain is also nothing. Everything is nothing including pain. So you see, the way I see it is that total disidentification from everything also causes the same union with the universe. It makes your identity into void. And realization that everything is void also. Nondual void basicly. Universe is one giant void. Or infinite void. Did I get this part right?

I see your point. But I think having no identity is also Unity. Which is equally valid state imo. Zero=infinity

I would question this. I think total no-identity state is possible without creating a duality. To be without identity doesn't imply duality. It implies oneness also imo.

@Leo Gura to have no identity or to make your identity everything. Isn't it two sides of the same coin? Total disidentification means zero, total identification with everything means infinity. Zero = infinity. Both are equally valid in my opinion. What do you think?

@Leo Gura why total identification with everything is > than total disidentification from everything? I think they are both equally valid truths. also wouldn't you say that total disidentification from everything requires a total peak of awareness? I'm sorry if you answered this already. I didn't get it ? if no. Why not.

Sorry, i didn't see you edited that. But you see, I'm not interested in training my body to handle pain either. My claim is that total disidentification is only possible when awareness hits the peak and realization happens that nothing in the universe can touch you. Awareness hits the peak and realize I'm nothing and suffering stops. And of course nothing is infinity also.

Okey, but can I question this? For example, what causes identitfication with the body-mind-psyche? Isn't it that lack of awareness is causing this identification with something that I am not? And isn't it true that if I become fully concious, I will gain the power to see that the identity is not me. When awareness is full on a distance arises between mind-ego and awareness. This is what I call disidentification. A clear distance between mind and awareness. So much so that one becomes totally aware that everything passes except awareness and this gives him total disidentification from everything. So. I hope it's easy to follow. The conclusion should be that total disidentification is only possible if the awareness hits the peak. Because it is lack of awareness that causes identification with mind in the first place. Would that make any sense to you?

See but it does guarantee that the monk who can bear lots of pain is at the peak levels of disidentification. And peak levels of disidentification implies a peak level of awareness that he is in. Because without awareness you cannot disidentify from pain. Would you not agree?

I accept that. And I think total identification with everything leads to love realization. And total disidentification leads to nothingness. I also think these are two truths about reality at the same time being equally true. One is that "I am everything". Another is "I'm am Nothing" I feel they are both true. One leads to total disidentification from everything and end of suffering another leads to total merging into existence. Total engrossed into existence and loving existence with all you have. One is dissmising existence totally another is accepting and loving existence totally. Two sides of the same coin. Yin and yang. What are your thoughts on this?

@Leo Gura isn't it a fair thing to say that if a person can endure big pain without suffering, that his awareness is totally disidentified from the body-mind system and he resides in that place of total detachment from everything.?

Why you didn't agree with what Consilience sayed about pain and equanimity? See I think your understanding of meditation has some holes in it. First of all, it takes enourmous awareness and disidentification from the body-mind to be able to endure big pain. It's not a spiritual trick really. It's a direct consiquence of your ability to disidentify from sensations. Without very intense awareness that is not possible. So... why do you not agree with this that intense awareness makes a person capable to disidentify from everything that he is not and end all blind resistence to the pain?

@Consilience wait bro ? Don't start a fight I'm trying to have a normal conversation here ?

I see. And are you sure it's impossible to attain to this awareness through buddhism if it goes to its peak attainment? I'm pretty sure buddhists know this also. Experiencially I mean. That state of no distinctions. Or perfect union.

@Leo Gura is awareness that I'm nothing. Beyond any quality and beyond suffering not a cool state? I think this is the aim of buddhism. How in your understanding this is different from your God-realization that you speak of? ?

Genuine Inquiry means looking, observing, scanning into who am I. It's a process of paying attention. So it's kind of like mindfulness meditation or deep self observation meditation that gets deeper and deeper as you practice. Mental masturbation is just intelectual gimnastics. For example, "who am I? Im the awareness that observes all phenomena". That's just mental masturbation. Genuine insight is when you observe all phenomena and you experiencially realize that nothing in the universe can touch you and you become god.

@Mz Hyde I like you too ?

@somegirl ? Okey, okey, sorry for sarcasm. Here is my highest wisdom coming from now on. honestly it's very hard to picture the whole scenario based on your describtion of what happened. In general, expossing stupidness is always a painful and embarrassing experience for everbody. Ego is an insecure thing, it always thinks It’s right and perfect. A natural resistence and denial will happen if you challenge that. Unless it's a very concious self honest being. People are usually very defensive about themselves so you have to be sensitive enough to know how much you can push it. You can’t just call somebody stupid moron straight in their face even if it's true. Not everbody is open and concious enough to take it ? if you want to learn the art of relationships you need to become more sensitive and self-aware, qualities like compassion and care help. You're not going to logic your way into every situation and how you should act in every different situation. It's an intuitive thing. You have to feel when you're stepping on someones toes but also not to support their stupidness. There's always an appropriate action in every situation. And there's no technique to tell you what that action must be. If you’re concious enough you will know it from within, if not then there will be endless friction in relationships. That's just the price we pay for being unconscious. But honestly it just feels like a random drama that happens between women that is not of much importance really. Okey I'll leave myself out now ?

@somegirl I think you just need a hug, and for someone to tell you are right and others are losers for not listening to you ??

@Rilles actually "I watching" meditation is very good for what you're doing. A person or I-feeling is actually an observable phenomena not just a vague idea that doesn't exist. It's like a sensation or tension inside the psyche with your self-image on it. If you can become aware of it, the rest is easy. But it takes considerable amount of awareness to locate it.

Yeah, but you see, how successful your investigation will be, is determined by how sharp your awareness is so... ? Even to locate the sense of a person in your psyche you need considerable amount of awareness. Let alone to transcend it.

Spot on intuition. There are any number of ways of rising the awareness. All the spiritual practices and meditations are about that mainly. The sense of being a person will not go away by mentally phylosophizing about it. But you probably know that already, I think.

Ahah, so you already know the answer then ?

The story that you're a person is caused by unawareness. Just ramp up your awareness until you're no longer human ?