Salvijus

Let me add one tiny thing. Yes meaning is imagined I agree. And when all imagined meaning is gone, it does not change the value of what exists. Yes. And that value is total zero. Haha

Mmmm... I don't follow you here. For me value and meaning are literally the same. Okay. I have a good example I believe that will really help. Here's a question. Of what value is sweet or bitter to a corpse?

You see. This is beautiful. @Osaid If we look from the body's point of view then there are things that have more value then others. Like water will have more value then poison to the body. To the ego, survival will have more value than anything else. But from the perspective that you're not the ego and not the body suddenly nothing means anything anymore.

Sweet and bitter can have different effect on the body. But to pure awareness both sweet or bitter means nothing at all. Just a temporary passing thing.

You see. Maybe we just have different English. Because for me these two words are synonymous haha. I believe you're trying to say that there is an existential effect that the element produces. Yes. But what I'm trying to say is that the effect is ultimately meaningless to pure awareness. To pure awareness it just another element that is not more important than the other elements in the world.

Or in other words, to pure awareness, all phenomena is a neutral event. Sensations just come and go, energy is dancing, forms come and dissolve and it all means nothing at all... Maybe that will land better.

Thank you for the effort to be on the same page. Yes I realized the world neutral means to you "without effect" or smth. But what I was trying to say "all effects, big or small ultimately have no value only if you give it value. If you don't give it value. It has no meaning. And it is the ego that determines the value of things"

There are only two options. Either everything is sacred and beautiful. Or everything is meaningless. If you're in between. You're in suffering. But I don't want to touch that subject right now.

There is one other motivator to be alive that I consciously not bringing it in into this convo because I feel it would unnecessary complicate the topic. Everything else I say is fully logical still.

Relax relax Let me explain more then and to clarify. Yes. Food will have a chemical reaction to the body. No disagreements here. What I'm saying is this. Every event, every change that happens in the body, every sensation that arises, all of it is ultimately meaningless, or neutral event. I hope you can make a bit of effort to understand what I'm trying to say 🙏

I could also add. All chemical reactions are a neutral event aswell. It means they have no meaning at all. Only ego ascribes meaning to things.

Shift in focus. Yes. And how is that different from say, losing all interest in survival when it becomes clear you're infinite and can not die?

When you taste smth bitter there is a chemical reaction with the body yes. But there is also a psychological reaction to the substance. "I like bitter food, I don't like bitter food" is an ego reaction. Body doesn't care at all how things taste only ego does. And here's an interesting thought. If the likes and dislikes of the ego are gone. Then suddenly... All events become neatrual.. Or all sensations become meaningless in other words. Wow. Did you see how it all connects?

Maybe it wasn't the best explanation. The explanation with a video game makes my point better I believe

I would politely disagree here. And here's why. A taste of vanilla has no value. It's just a sensation. Pain has no value. It's just a sensation. All sensations are neutral and without meaning ultimately The only reason we prefer some sensations over other is becomes of ego. Ego is what puts some things as more valuable than others and it does so to serve its survival.

I'm done. This makes too much sense.

The example I gave earlier could help to explain this. It's like when I play video games(just as an example) , during that intense period I forget all about my life problems, hunger, pain, plans about my future, relationship problems, everything is gone from my experience. Most gamers should know that feeling when they forget all their bodily needs suddenly. And when the game is finished they remember "fuck I forgot i was cooking food and now it's burned" That's how it is with someone with zero interest in the ego. Nothing that is related to survival matters anymore to them. And with that pain of 50.years is nothing to them aswell. Not something that they would even notice. Or pay attention to.

Yep "Always" is a strong word. There are various cases would be a more accurate thing to say maybe .

And so pain is no longer more special sensation than pleasure. Both are just sensations. Everything becomes neutral. Nothing matters anymore. Ego is gone. And with it all the meaning and values it has ascribed to the arising phenomena is gone. Goooooshhh this makes so much sense broooooo..

It's not about excluding the body, it's about giving it no value. It is only ego that gives value to the body. Pure awareness sees everything just neutral event. Neutral energy.

Because... Imagine there is a glorious beautiful blazing sunset and on your left there is poo on the ground. Then I will ask you. Which one are you going to pay attention to? A sunset or a poo? That's how it is with someone who has lost interest in serving the ego. His attention is so absorbed on bliss of creation that a sensation of pain is completely not worth paying attention to. Please tell me this makes sense...

So it seems we agree on this. That perception of self is the cause for many actions. Or in other words desire to serve the ego can only be there if there is a belief in the ego in the first place. Good. Now if we contemplate what happens when the perception of ego is seen through as imaginery. The only outcome of such a seeing can be to lose interest in the ego. Or in other words. All desire to serve the ego is gone. If we push a bit further then with it all attention and focus on the body is gone. If we push it further and contemplate what that means you get a samadhi state where that particular mind is so absorbed on infinity that sensations on the body mean nothing at all. And so... It all comes together into this: "I was right all along" Muahahaaha

Yes I know what you mean. These days there are many spiritual teachers and all of them are saying different things lol. There's like new teachings about enlightenment every day now haha. Everyone is just pushing their opinion left and right. With that sayed, I'm not coming with the intention to prove I'm right. I'm coming with the intention to explore. The perspective I'm giving is in alignment with my own experience. Very much so. But more importantly than that. It is fully fully logical. And that's where I thought was potential for interesting discussions to happen. And for the record, what I'm saying, references of it can be found in many ancient traditions like bhuddism, ancient yoga, even acim. These are very high quality material. It's only in the new age YouTube culture that you can find such simplistic enlightenment definitions.

It's not necessary to have a full blown ego transcendence to confirm what I'm saying. Even if 1% of ego gets transcended it is already a huge life changing transformative experience and shift in perception/reality. In that context I continuesly move towards higher and deeper transcendce but I have not touched the bottom. I think i mentioned here that only few in millenia ever get to touch the the full blown absorption into the Beyond. I don't even think I'm anywhere near it.

The key thing to understand is that. Sense of self(ego) is the cause of many many many actions. And no self state has huge implications in change of behavior and how you feel.