Mal

@Ajax You're not dragging me into a vortex of misinterpritive mind games. I'll pass on the "sidelining derail" thanks. I don't want to hurt your feelings but I've got no problem using force to get a pest off my back. Yes these are pixels. For me that's true. For you it's not. And for a lot of people it's not. You are clearly interpreting life via 1st tier lenses. I am not. Until you reach the platform I'm residing you will continue to interpret my reality through your lens. I put my insight up on the page, self realized people can be run by their shadow and that's what I've pointed out from this example. Ajax dude, I have more to do with my time than to get involved with your energy leeching debate. Respectfully, Mal

I suggest you read my posts and do the leg work yourself. Mal

@Ajax I am merely stating what healthy self development looks like from a 1st person perspective. I have been embedded in this post-convetional construct myself. It's very important to pass through these stages toward increasing wholeness and avoid aborting emotional development in favour of self-realization. If you read my other posts you will understand that I have no moral issues. I let all systems be as they are. You are not grasping the context and subtlety of what I'm doing on this forum. What I do have a problem with is the mindfucking and subtle undermining Charlie is engaging most people on here in an attempt at online "Guru Yoga". This is not the platform for such practice's and I am more than happy to point out the pathological nature of his perspectives, the fact that they are not context dependant so therefore contradict themselves in unhealthy ways. I'm afraid I cannot sit and watch this happen. His perspective is fine. Nobody is disputing appropriate punishment for crime. However, this conversation has been derailed in yet another attempt to inform most of us of something so obvious it's already a given in reality: Criminals are punished by society. Yes, we get it. So what? That's last semesters lesson. Yes, some of Charlie's advice can help one find their true self. But the rest of it is brainwashing. It's a trick as old as the hills and it's the wrong way to go about enlightnement. Mal PS. Ajax, it looks like you're still jumping on the moralizing bandwagon and trying to figure it out. This I don't blame you for, but adherence to this concept and insufficient integration is blocking you seeing my reality and what's going on under your nose. No hard feelings

I just saw this comment. It's not a rare occurrence for a human being to get something 100% completely wrong. Alas your behaviour on this column of text is another example of how a person can and does project the contents of their own mind onto the conversational landscape. The only person who wasn't aware of the conversation and who did try to push a point was yourself. You won't be aware of this but it was actually you who failed to grasp what the other participants were attempting to say to you. You will not understand what is being said to you, as you have your own agenda and "points" to get people to "grasp". Higher levels of development are shrouded in mystery when viewed from the lower rungs of the ladder as the progression of development is a movement of transcending the current stage of development and including and organizing the content that came before it. You missed the essence of the conversation by pushing your strawman and personal agenda. This is not your fault, but you have unwittingly demonstrated how a self-realized person can still, sadly, be run by their ego without knowing it. Mal

It's my opinion that you have created strawman and then attacked them? Or is it my opinion that this is the behaviour of a specific level of ego development called conformist? Because I can produce the research results for you if you like. However, I don't need research as I have my own eyes and they are working very well.

Charlie, Thanks for your reply. I'm still unsure of who you were replying to with the following statements: You said: " no one has voiced any thing about the real victim, the one that was raped and the trauma" This is not true, because I did in fact mention that the "victim" of a rape is a victim. However, I also said that the perpetrator of the rape is also a victim from a highly emotionally developed persons perspective. You said: "but rather its about the rapist being the victim of society instead and how we should not be moralizing the rapist" Again, this is another distortion. Nobody here has sided with the rapist as a victim INSTEAD of focusing on the victim of the crime. I cannot see any part of the texts you were referring to when you made these two statements. Nobody in this discussion made the claim that people who commit crimes should not be treated as if they have done nothing wrong. This is another strawman. Do self-realized beings who are in touch with reality create strawman arguments? What you have done here is verbally attacked your own reflection. This is a trait of a conformist who holds fixed beliefs about specific issues. The process of introjection of beliefs and the outward projecting. There is no reality processing here, just a game of hide and seek with ones own projected shadow.

@Andre Hi Andre, This is a good question, something I've been researching. In my opinion infants are not really "enlightened". Their state is a condition of unconscious symbiotic fusion - similar to "being" but undifferentiated. According to the traditions (for example, the Vedic Science concept of "changing levels of mind" (Maharishi 1970) each human being progresses through a series of fundamental shifts of consciousness, from pre-verbal (infancy), to discursive-verbal (adulthood), and in rare cases post-symbolic (transpersonal) and then cosmic consciousness (aka "unity consciousness"). Some teachers and philosophers are convinced that a person cannot reach what the Vedic tradition calls "full enlightenment" until they have developed their ego, mastered the object world and then transcended it. Not everybody agrees with this, but I happen to think this reflects the process as accurately as we can make it on an intellectual level. Mal

@jes I hope my observation proves helpful for you in developing some more of your own capacity to observe yourself in action Mal

@jes Hi jes, Dependency on self-help books unfortunately is not a part of the initial phase of self development. I noticed a dependency around asking very basic questions that you could either research yourself, or wait for an answer to come internally. For example, a lot of your meditation questions seemed to me that your question would have been answered by itself if you had allowed yourself to practice for a little while. Dependency has a habit of shifting from one stimulus to another without much discrimination. I recommend you stick to one book at a time. One meditation technique at a time and go at it with a serious and respectable intent toward developing a small degree of self-reliance. I'm happy to help anybody with any sticking points they have after successfully showing that they have indeed put in some special effort into their self-actualizing goals. There are plenty of people on here in need of help who are genuine about this resource, help and advice is also a limited resource too. Mal

As a being of consciousness who cannot look into the future (because there is no future, yes?) how do you know this will be the case? Unless, you are speaking as the human identity at this point, therefore you are shrouded in beliefs and "unable to see reality"? And, do you know for sure that conformist labelling of criminals AS criminals who create consequences (despite the fact they are not conscious and have no free will but are programmed) and not human beings with problems (which is what empathy is) will keep civilization in tact? I'm looking forward to your reply (IF you are willing to debate with this "ego" here!) Mal

Charlie, I'm missing something. Can you explain the incongruity in your statements, please? If there is no free will, then the criminal is not personally culpable and is indeed part of a larger social problem. And nobody mentioned (until you did) that a criminal should not be punished or restrained, we are talking about the phenomena of empathy for all parties involved. Mal

Charlie, it looks to me as if you are not actually interested in seeing reality. Misanthropy or just woeful editing, perhaps? Respectfully -Mal

@Saarah Theres no point arguing with blue cognition. It's black vs white, right vs. wrong. There is no emotional nuance. Great example though of what we were talking about earlier though! Transcend and include, this thinking is part of your own well developed being Mal

@Saarah @Saarah In a nutshell if we don't integrate our shadow it's still going to be there running the show, even if we trancend the relative body mind. Pre rational, rational and trans-rational are arbitrary markers for the purposes of map making. Enlightnement is about transcending the rational mind. We still have access to the ego, but we process reality from a place of Witnessing Presence rather than through the filters of the ego. If you were a carpenter would you want battered old tools to work with, or state of the art fully functioning tools? The ego is a tool from the vantage point of the awakened mind. Mal

@Natasha @Salaam Hi to you both, For what it's worth, and if either of you are interested at this point... I happen to think this is a very fruitful dual going on. I'm enjoying the back and forth of high quality information coupled with insight.... and adherence to view! If either of you are interested in a quick "kensho" here is a pointer: @Natasha Salaam is actually completely grounded in reality, you just don't want to see it because you're clinging to your view. @Salaam Same goes for you! Both your views are just views. The first one to drop their defensive position against reality right now wins a satori! Enjoy the bliss! Regards Mal

@charlie2dogs Charlie, I am painting a picture of what mature self-development is. If you desire to enter into these complex questions I suggest you develop your emotional and cognitive self, this will give you direct insight into the different systems of thinking and values in our world. Mal

@ill It sounds like you want validation and yet another dating coaches advice. It takes more than 2 years of meditation to undo a lifetimes worth of negative programming. Even people cleansing kundalini have years of depression and rage to work through. Attitude is important. Mal

For anybody interested here is an eye witness account of what went on with one devotee of Andrew Cohen's "Enlighten Next" Cult. The irony is, he was endorsed as an Integral teacher by Ken Wilber himself! Obviously Cohen has stepped down from his "Satsang Guru" job since the cult was blown open. The main point is, that Cohen was appointed Satsang Guru by Poonjai, however it's quite clear that he became enlightened while still hosting a ton of psychological issues based in the lower 3 chakra. Enlightenment does not solve psychological shadow problems.

@Natasha He he

@BeckoningCat @charlie2dogs Beckoning cat. I feel it's an appropriate time to point out here that highly developed people (Post-conventional/pluralistic) will feel for both the victim and the rapist - because they are both victims of a larger social problem. There are also other perspectives to take into account, if you have ever read anything on a liberal left-wing publications forum, you will have been witness to a plethora of articles and responses in regard to the multi-sided nature of rape. To assume it is only the attacker's fault, and that the victims of rape are only women and children is a sign of a person's inability to healthily cognize and take perspectives. This type of highly developed post-conventional reasoning is not widely accepted in our current society because of a widely pervasive phenomena called "conformist" moral stage development. Yes, there could be a number of reasons why your friend got upset at you, however because you mentioned she exposed her intent, it's most likely a moralizing situation where her moral development is stunted at "conformist morality". In this particular case she was most likely projecting and getting you to identify with it using subtle or even not so subtle shaming tactics. As we develop we pass through stages of moral development, we transcend and include the content of what came before. Unfortunately as we climb the ladder of moral development we also find there are increasingly less people able who understand our perspective. High cognition = compassion. One cannot develop true compassion unless one develops their cognitive capacity to step inside the shoes of all involved and see a situation through a number of lenses. Off-loading, instant assumptions and blaming is the realm of conformist projective and introjective "moralizing". Warmly Mal

@Saarah Us/them dichotomies. Most cults and their leaders are stuck at blue. Theravada monks, Zen monks, any culture where you're pushed to follow rituals and rules without question. "Never lie" "Never break precepts" (rules) Can't handle diversity. Only one way of doing things and everybody else is wrong. Basic cognition, no awareness of context, black vs. white thinking.

@Baz Hi Baz, In a nutshell if you work on yourself you will get the girl that's right for you. I or anybody here can give you all the lines and advice in the world and you can spend good dollar on dating advice and none of it will work because it's about getting your life together. I never even attempted to meet anybody until I felt like I could leave my house, walk across to the park and sit down with somebody who I thought would like to go chat. When you can do that, then you will be ready. Until then getting a girl will not fix things, and all you will get is the girls who will make your life difficult. Mal P.S. My friend, you could be working at Starbucks as a manager and renting, it's fine. As long as you're not going to be at Starbucks in 5 years time. Know what I mean?

Having a perspective on a situation is not "moralizing". You might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater here in relation to this non-moralizing issue. We cannot get away from having perspective. Try to remain impartial about everything: Try repressing your ego and see what happens. Impartiality is an illusion as long as we're in a human body and still breathing - no matter what certain spiritual teachers tell you. How did you actually feel about the news story? This would have been your authentic response. Once we clear moralizing from our lives we're left with space to develop our emotions to something more than "I like / I don't like". There is room both cognitively and emotionally for us to have more flavours and colours in our emotional landscape. Complexity is a mark of a well developed person: the ability to hold many perspectives in relation to a vibrant and multicomplex emotional response. Don't you love and hate somebody at the same time? Ever felt that feeling? I was not there to see how you were being pressed to identify with your friend's perspective. People who moralize tend to try to get approval for their worldview from anybody they can find. I do know that projection plays a big part in this, if a person is projecting they will try to get others to identify with their projections because it feeds their self image. just say "I see" and then move on. Don't engage too much, lie, agree with them for a moment and tell them what they want to hear to get them off your back. Turn away and give the impression that you're losing interest. Yawn. Do anything to move away if they are being this close minded. Use what you have in your arsenal against their energy leeching projections. It does not make you inauthentic to play the game. If you are strong enough in presence you can challenge them in a friendly way. Never do it confrontationally though, bear in mind that they are not perfect and that they have just been conditioned this way. It might serve you both to say: "Hey, I don't agree entirely with that, but this is my perspective". Then treat them as if you expect them to come up with something just as deep and profoundly felt. Challenge her to look past her egoic projections for a moment and delve into her own deep identity for something real. A long term strategy is to find new friends if you cannot cope with them. But nobody is that bad!

@BeckoningCat Hello, This is a universal problem for those of us wise enough to tread the path of self-improvement and self-actualization. One of my personal favorites in my "interpersonal toolkit" is to take the attitude of "transcend and include". I'll explain how I do this: I always use these situations as an excuse for my environment to aid me in my self-actualizing process. It would be ridiculous of me to judge them for being judgemental of others. So I include their perspectives as part of what is, but I also know that this perspective that they cling to is not all of their authentic personality. Every single person has the potential to also rise above their own issues, you just need to assume the position of a unassuming role model. It's not their fault, it's just how we're all conditioned to be. Warm Regards Mal