Hatfort

@Vrubel I'm open to reading what he has to say about the topic and I have the right to share what I think as well, I'm not lecturing him down, we just disagree. But one thing is sharing different points and disagreeing, and another is what he is constantly doing, putting words, ideas, or assumptions on me and what he calls people like me, because it makes the discussion more convenient for him and that are not true. He is manipulating and, not only I'm not going to take it, but I'm going to address it when it happens. So you get over that. The Irak war saved him from serving in the army, as he has stated. For thousands of others, it was death. After the war, there wasn't peace for many years either. He is also depicting the Kurds as mere tribes, but it seems not everyone agrees with that either.

@Vrubel Yes he is, instead of stating his points about the topic, he is constantly making personal remarks and false assumptions about me. I'm not pushing my worldview, I'm just sharing it the same way he is in a discussion forum, in a topic he started for that purpose, by the way.

@Mesopotamian Did you just say that I'm not ready to accept that people and politicians lie? lol, accept it is an understatement. Again, instead of making your points, you make up all kinds of false statements about me and you discuss with that depiction instead because it's easier. I'm not going to even go through that garbage you tell about delusion. What you are doing at this point is gaslighting, pure manipulation, but I wasn't born yesterday. I didn't like what happened in Irak, I've stated many reasons why. You don't agree, fine by me.

@Mesopotamian Well, I care how many people died, that's a difference between us, no doubt about it. I think it's very different international interventions in conflicts that are already happening than invading other countries with lies for hidden economical and geopolitical interests. Of course, Hussein's dictatorship was awful, but, as you say, your country continues being violent as hell, democracy didn't take that away. The violence very probably increased in the new scenario for years until it got balanced again. That's on Bush as well, Obama inherited that what his predecessor caused. It's probably very unstable yet. Man, make your points, I'm interested and some are valid, although others are garbage. But stop talking about me or what you call ones like me. You don't speak for me, I do. My whole identity doesn't hinge upon this, that's a crazy thing to say, as far as you know I'm just a guy commenting about a topic in a forum, the rest is your imagination. I'm not even American, but I have no shame saying that what happened to the natives was awful. The settlers and invaders were undeveloped and red, so it was unavoidable at that time of history, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. I think there is a future where all different civilizations will live at relative peace, not that we will see it in our lifetimes, but we are getting there. At least if we don't screw our planet before that, but that's another topic, and can be addressed at another time.

@Mesopotamian Was it to the mandatory military service? That's still not that rare, countries like Russia and Israel have it, it ended in the late 90s in my country as well, we were also put into trucks or faced prison if not. In any case, you were lucky not to be called earlier and be killed by the US army with a bomb for being in a base serving like others were. They would be alive if the US hadn't decided to attack a foreign country and you could have easily been one of them. But you weren't, so who cares, right? They didn't do it to save you guys, they did it to serve the interests of their military industry, which makes huge profits with wars like this, the oil companies obviously, and many others as well. Your government, whoever wins the elections, is with all certainty lobbied by powerful economical entities now. Is that better than Saddam? I guess so, but the price was too high, and you never know how it would have turned out without attacking them either. Your country seems full of violence yet anyway. Offtopic note: Israel has mandatory service, but only for first-class jew citizens, the lower Palestinians are not allowed to touch guns, for obvious reasons. Just pointing out the apartheid there. Making friends here, for sure.

Capitalism has already rules, rules established by the politicians lobbied by the wealthiest companies. So we need other rules for it established by politicians lobbied by the people. Why? Because capitalism, as it is, is causing a lot of unnecessary suffering to so many people and is holding us back as societies towards development. Will we get perfection? No. but that doesn't mean we cannot aim for better horizons. People need to wake up and vote for more decent politicians, which is not that easy, as the media is owned by those same companies that will, directly and indirectly, send messages to prevent that. I'm not saying it is a conspiracy, they mostly believe their own bullshit.

@Mesopotamian Yeah, sure. Happy holiday, dude!

@Mesopotamian Look, man, stop projecting all that garbage into me or what you call people like me, which is false. I'm just stating my opinion on this, you can do the same. If your points are good, you don't need to make personal remarks of any kind about me. The more democracy and human rights, which should go hand in hand, the more Kurdish people are going to demand their rights. The best way to keep them under the foot was in fact a red dictatorship. Bush is not a hero, he is a genocide for starting a war with lies and thousands of deads in a foreign country. Thank god Trump is out of the picture because he was likely to do the same.

You love war? Sure, tell me that when the next town with more guns kill you and all your kind to take what you have. Because that's war in essence. I think avoiding wars as much as possible is the right call, and as societies living together in the same world, we should aspire to that without a doubt. But too many are not there yet and the rest have to deal with this reality somehow. So don't get me wrong, If you hit me, I'll hit you back so you don't do it again at least. Are we clear? I think I triggered you somewhere there. I haven't pushed Kurds to anything, I acknowledge what they demand, which is a country on their own and I think it's totally fair to do it democratically, otherwise, they are enforced to live under the law of another majority, which will be always biased against them, or adopt whatever the other majority decides they have to adopt. Enforcing unity is usually what happens under a dictatorship, which may seem cool, unless you are the one fucked up by the dictator and his army, like the Kurds were. Where I say dictatorship, I can also say democracy, because the Turkish government does exactly the same against them. And I'm 100% against the genocide of the Yazidis, they don't happen because of people like me at all. You know, I could even consider international military interventions to prevent them. Those who do it have to be at least denounced. https://borgenproject.org/genocide-of-yazidis-by-isil/

I think Trump would totally go with it if he thought he had enough support. The military may be closer to him, but this is too much, it won't happen. It's so obvious Biden has won cleanly, Trump's claims of fraud are baseless and ridiculous. Biden is not that much a revolutionary figure either, if it was Sanders, we could be more worried.

Well, the world is complicated and every country has its own complications. Most countries have sub countries inside of them, others are ex-colonies and others don't have international recognition as countries and are even divided by ones that have, like Kurdistan, for example, but I can give you a hundred more in every continent, except Antarctica. There may be a democracy now, meaning the view of the majority from Irak will be reflected in the government, which is very possibly not that far from the views Saddam Hussein already had, you cannot force a society to evolve overnight. The war caused thousands of victims, a war that was decided from the outside and those people are not going to come back to life. It wasn't done for the good of the people there, that's extremely naive, it was done for economical and geopolitical reasons that would benefit those who decided to go with it.

This has been a huge win towards a more conscious politics, not only for the USA, but also globally for the position and influence this country has in the world scale. You've fired Donald Trump and sent him and his supporters a message, that's not how you rule in a country that aims to lead the world, at least in the XXI century. Congrats to women for the first female vice president elect, it must mean a lot. Considering Biden's age, Kamala Harris may have to present herself on 2024, wait for it. Biden is not going to implement a lot of the policies many of us would like, and yet his election was the right one, the alternative was Trump. We can learn a lot from the last four years, it was painful, but not in vain. Biden will have to deal with a bunch of crazy MAGAs and it may get ugly with the COVID situation. But remember that Trump has shown his true colors last five days, he's not willing to accept democracy, which makes him an aspiring dictator, although he wouldn't call it like that, he would just declare the mailing votes ilegal and say he won, if he could. Aspirations that won't happen, as he won't have the support to fulfil them. It was a pleasure, see you next time!

Tim Pool After Biden Won: "We always knew this was going to happen." That's a real quote, btw. I forgot where the clip was, though. I remember people telling on this forum that Trump was going to win for sure, that we couldn't see it because we lived in our own information bubble. Man, that's exactly where they were, and unconsciously projecting it into others. They will deny it of course, like this guy that always knew Biden was going to win. MAGAs melting down and their compilations all over social media, receiving a bit of four years later Karma. Trump is the loser now, the worst kind of one, he can't accept it. What a difference with John McCain or any other candidate that ever lost, including Hillary. He couldn't leave honorably, it's not a surprisse.

Anyone who voted for this should be proud.

It is, the images below are from the anniversary of the death of the Spanish fascist dictator Franco in 2016. Spaniard fascists simpathize with Trump, surprise, as it's quite obvious for their signs. The ultra right political party in Spain got 15% in the general elections last year, awful. Image taken from the documentary The silence of others (2019)

Rudy Giuliani is presenting his witnesses live. A woman that "felt the fraud". I'm not kidding. lol

Oh, he really tweeted this? I'm gonna get some popcorn. ???

How cool, this is the moment! Checked NYTimes and Huffpost, classics. One says 273 the other 284 for Biden, AKA Sleepy Joe.

Paula White, amazing!

My prediction was that it was going to be very even and that Trump would win. I was right about the first part, but I'm very glad I was wrong about the winner. Trump has been beaten by Sleepy Joe, eat that, Trumpists! Looking at the vote numbers, Trump has had more votes than in 2016. I feared this, most people who voted for him before, have voted for him again, and even more in this polarized scenario. People prefer to stick with whatever they have done before admitting they were wrong, it's a self-defense mechanism. The lower in the spiral dynamics model, the more difficult to admit an error, they prefer to double down. I'm not that afraid of Trumpism in the medium term, he is still going to be an annoying figure for a while, but that's all. There's no one like him to take the place in the Republican party as far as I know. Society is evolving as well, so it will be more difficult that someone like him gets to power again. So why did Trump lose? Well, after four years of his bullshit, the opposition for him as awaken. In 2016 we had not seen him in charge yet and it was taken for granted that he would lose, not only by Hilary but the people in general, huge mistake. Biden sure has his base, but a lot of his votes have come from people who just dislike Trump and wanted him out of office. Totally legit reason to vote, thank god it happened. Trump has confirmed our worst fears, he is trying to stay in power even after losing the election. But seems to me more and more people will leave his boat and it will be fast. He's behaving antidemocratically. There's no way he can sustain why he wanted to stop the count in places he was leading and keep it in places he was not. It's just admitting he doesn't accept democracy, what people vote. Not even Fox News could go with that. He still has those inconditionals and followers in denial, those insisting the truth of fraud will come out. I checked Tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro, they are there, and we have some examples on this thread as well, one is very obvious. But it won't, counting votes takes time, remember that other states have not finished counting either, the only thing is that there are four where the result is being very even for both. The system can and should be improved, but claims about fraud are baseless. So let's see how the next years go. Biden has room to amend some of the horrible policies and manners his predecessor has been implementing. I won't lie, I won't expect much from him. He seems blue - orange to me, with some sparks of green. But that's much better than an incendiary red narcissist like Trump. Glad he's done.

Hate speech is a problem, indeed. There are vulnerable people in society, like minorities that can never obtain political power to set the rules, for example, native Americans. Women, who have had less power than men through all history. LGTB people, who have dealt and deal with systemic hatred and offensive treatment. Inmigrants, which can be vulnerable economically and legally. Poor people, from any race. Blacks, slavery history, not that far from now. Children or elderly people, for obvious reasons. When hate speech goes towards any of these more vulnerable people, we've historical evidence that this can become dangerous for their integrity, and the harm can come from the institutions or from other people. As societies, we can aim for a more secure situation for all. Sometimes some people may need to be defended from the harassment of others, mostly when it's repeated or systemic. Where is the line where we should intervine or not? Difficult to say. As an example, it used to be normal to say hitting your wife is fine, should we allow that speech now, to someone that really believes it? Well, I thihnk at this point we've agreed to censor those speeches that directly look to harm any person or community. What about saying someone or a whole community is inferior? Is that fine? I don't think so, we gotto protect ourselves from ourselves as a community. I'm just rambling.

Okay, I'll put you in context. There's been a troll creating multiple accounts on this thread the last days, including this. So anyone appearing with a new account would seem to be him again. Don't take it personally. I was pro Bernie too, it sucked when he lost. But he's been an example, he's been campaining for the Democrat candidate against Trump, like he said he would, understanding he was a menace to democracy. Man, he was so right, warned about what Trump would do in the scenario of a tight election, he nailed it. He's way more talented than Biden, but it wasn't possible.

Trump is asking to stop counting votes in a democracy, it's happening now, but some guys here putting the focus anywhere else, like look how the other side is corrupt as well, look what Obama did or what Hillary said, of course, blaming how biased others are. Look guys, it sucks when the one you like doesn't win, or the one that you dislike wins. But if you want to set the precedent of not counting votes, candidates not conceding when losing, that goes against the most fundamental principals of democracy. There's something awful going on now and Trump is the responsible. Biden has not said anything out of tone since the election, that's the truth. Swallow your own bias for once and acknoledge what's happening, instead of gaslighting towards other topics. People have voted, votes have to be counted, then we see who leads for the next 4 years. Spoilers: Biden.

I don't know, man. The deer really made a huge mess in his way in and out!!

Let him moan, he's done. No way he's getting elected in 2024 after what he's doing and he'll be too old to run.