jip

i disagree with his idea of making "strategic blunders" in life, especially some of the ones he listed. i had some of the best times of my life playing video games and would have never want to have missed that, not for 100 years of contentment. Same with partying/drinking, there is simply no ultimate way of living, and while certain things may be better from objective viewpoint, you can never really know in the end, trying to live life perfectly is just not going to work. he goes a little bit overboard in valuing truth at all cost and takes it all somewhat too seriously, life is a single awareness playing a game, but being constantly aware of that fact won't make the game very much fun i guess. i also think he idealizes enlightenment and monks/yogi's a little too much. i sure see that the value in raising consciousness is big, but i also think there is more to life than just contentment. and he's too much a fan of the graves model imo, and seems to forget sometimes it's just a model, and aside from that, putting people in boxes of colors is somewhat sad. that said, he has a lot of great advice and is one of the most wise people i've come across, but just like everybody has his blindspots, and one of those is not enough acknowledgement of the possibility of blindspots i guess. just my take on some of his ideas, not any more or less valid than leo's or anyone else's perspective offcourse

the word "authentic" is kinda misleading imo, everything within manifestation is basically inauthentic in the sense that it is illusory. it's all just language but from my current understanding there is only false self (ego) and no-self/true self (empty awareness), and it's not really possible to act from no-self, since it has no qualities.

realize that unconditional love are just words, completely subjective and without any inherent meaning. what it refers to for most people is just a very pleasant emotion/feeling towards everything, again, subjective, arbitrary and free from any meaning other than the one you(the ego) ascribe to it. So to answer your question: Sure, one can love unconditionally without being enlightened. There is no ultimate authority who determines what love is and what it isn't, so call whatever you want love, and it will be love for you. (writing this post for example is pure love, lol:P)

Leooooo Have you ever contemplated the idea that perception=reality So if you perceive the world as a place full of suffering with deluded unhappy people and the only way you can ever be happy is through spiritual enlightenment, then that will very likely be your reality and you are indeed not going to be happy until you get enlightenment. But why perceive it that way? Why not reevaluate everything and see that this whole existence thing is magical and that we're already extremely lucky to experience anything, let alone having a human experience in the 21st century. Why not enjoy the dream-state while we're in it instead of despising it as something we need to wake up from? What' s the point? Fact is that you (the chimp you, that is ) could die tomorrow without ever having achieved enlightenment. Why put happiness off for another year or 5 when it's here, right now, for free. You don't need enlightenment or anything for it. If you still want to know the truth of existence badly, i think that's great and amazing that we have that opportunity, so by all means go for it

Sex is only a need for those unenlightened chimps

Just become enlightened, all your relationship problems will be instantly solved and you'll live blissfully ever after.

Yeah because Leo is enligh..oh wait No just kidding, his stuff is great but you should always think for yourself or not think at all, nobody has all the answers

Lol, how ironic

Thank you for taking the time to respond Leo:) I don't know about you, but if i look very honestly back on my life i would say i've been pretty happy most of the time. Are you saying it is just an illusion and i'm not conscious enough to see? It seems pretty real though:p I would agree with you that a lot of "succesful" people are probably miserable on the inside, but saying that everybody in the world is unhappy just doesn't really make sense to me. And don't you also think there is more to life than just happiness?(i remember jed saying somthing like you get used to/almost forget the contentment that that comes with enlightenment once you have it after a while) It's almost a bit as though you tell someone who is unhappy because he has no girlfriend to cut off his balls, so it's not even an issue anymore. Okay, very crappy analogy and enlightenment is probably very great for those who get there but i hope you get the point:P I can imagine you see all these questions as ego-defenses, but don't you think ego has the right to know at least a little bit about where it will end up after it discards itself? Thx anyway

It just leaves me a bit confused and unresolved, not really angry or upset lol, but guess you're right in a sense that it's more so my problem in taking his words too litterally.

I really respect Leo and i think he's very intelligent- that's probably why his statements strike me a bit. I can't resolve why he makes such bold claims about happiness and enlightenment almost without leaving the possibility open of being wrong. I also don't understand why he has such a depressing view on the world where basically 99,999999% of people is unhappy and the only way to become happy is by 1000-10000 hours of emotionally hard work and even then you have to be extremely lucky, but maybe that's just part of his enlightenment journey and maybe he'll eventually drop that one:p No need to be sorry, your posts are not that rude lol;-)

Just because enlightenment itself is beyond logic and reasoning doesn't mean we should just discard all logic and reasoning to what it means to our lives lol. I'm not that attached to my knowlegde, as i said, i could very well be deluded, and so could Leo. Just saying there is no reason to be so dogmatic about enlightenment and its connection to happiness. Not aggressive at all, although i can imagine my posts might come across that way:p I don't feel bad about enlightenment; (that would be pretty dumb, enlightenment just is) and if anything i think its very fascinating. I'm just skeptical towards Leo's claims about happiness and its relationship to enlightenment, especially because Leo is not enlightened himself. I would also say that enlightenment should be pursued to for truth and truth alone, not for the rewards for the ego like happiness, no self image problems etc

I've watched them all a couple of times, and i think they're really great. But still, all thats presented in those videos are stories/beliefs. It could very well be possible that you are right but also that you are wrong so i don't see the necessity to be so dogmatic about it. And the fact is that 99,99% of people are not going to be buddhas anyway so taking on such a belief will only make the dreamstate worse for them, and besides that it's just a sad way to look at the world/people. Based on my own experience i would say that happiness is possible within the dreamstate, but sure i could be deceiving myself and i also see that a lot of people are neurotic. But Leo, if you really believe the only thing we want in life is happiness and just being is the highest quality happiness, why are you even on this forum and not just meditating 24/7? The body still needs to be alive though in order to have happiness? Well, you seem to think so too..

Hey, I don't really get how people who have read Jed McKenna books are still excited about this enlightenment stuff. For those who haven't read it, he clearly points out that: -enlightenment a painful "process" -is not about finding some cool truth, but the destroying of all illusion until only truth is left -is as radical as committing suicide -is life negative, pointless and should only be pursued by those who have no other options -has nothing to do with becoming a better person, becoming happier or raising consciousness -has nothing to do with love, compassion, bliss or heaven on earth I'll let the guy speak for himself because his analogies are ingenious: "Well, I wouldn't want to give the impression that it's almost pointless. It's perfectly pointless. Awakening to your true nature is like dying; it's a certainty, inevitable. You're going to get there no matter what you do, so why rush? Enjoy your life, it's free. Cosmic Consciousness and Altered States and Universal Mind are names of rides in this vast and fascinating dualistic amusement park. So are Poverty and Disease and Despair. Enlightenment though, is not another ride. Enlightenment means leaving the park altogether, but why leave the park? In the park you can be a saint or a yogi or a billionaire or a world leader or a warlord. Be good, be evil. Happiness, misery, bliss, agony, victory, defeat, it's all here. What's the big rush? When the time comes to leave the park you'll know and you'll go, but there's certainly nothing to be gained by it." "From the U-Rex perspective, "I say, U-Rex is obviously real reality and C-Rex is obviously ridiculous. Also, C-Rex has no upside. There's nothing in its favor, it doesn't go anywhere. Truth is a booby-prize. It doesn't do any good or make anything better. It doesn't provide meaning, it strips meaning away. It takes all the amusement out of the amusement park; no meaning, no significance to anything, no reason to get out of bed in the morning. C-Rex brings nothing to the table, whereas U-Rex creates the illusion of meaning. We must have the context U-Rex provides. Even though it's false, it's still context." "So the lie is better than the truth, you are saying." "Sure. The truth might set you free, but then you find yourself standing in an endless parking lot outside the amusement park wondering why you're out, and how to get back in. Truth has nothing to recommend it except that it's true. U-Rex has everything to recommend it except that it's false." "Me, I don't think so. I know Maya pretty well and i don't see her ever losing more than the occasional stray. A species-wide transformation is a pretty idea, but we have little cause for optimism and plenty for pessimism. It's nice to think we could elevate ourselves, and it's fun to dabble in theoretical scenarios, but the reality is that man will never evolve or transcend or develop beyond his past and present level. If that sounds like a bad thing to us, if Maya sounds like a force of evil, if the terms by which man lives on this planet seem to oppressive or restrictive, then we might do well to take a step back and reevaluate the situation. Where are we? What is this place? Is it a prison to be despised or an amusement park to be enjoyed? Is ego a hideous affliction? Or is it simply the vehicle that allows us to come out and play? When the choice is between no-self and false-self, false-self start looking pretty good and despising and demonizing it starts to seem pretty ungrateful." This demonizing of ego, which i see a lot here, seems to me very ironically, just an ego game Now sure he is exaggerating a bit, there are other perspectives and Jed McKenna is off course not the ultimate authority on enlightenment(although i have little doubt that he is enlightened), and i'm sure Truth can be a very great thing for people, but i really doubt whether enlightenment is something desirable for everyone, when the enlightened guy himself states that it's life-negative.

Why are you so dogmatic about your belief that you can't be happy without being enlightened? It's just a belief, and may or may not be true. You can't really know unless you are enlightened and even then you might deceive yourself. As much as you talk about breaking down beliefs and dogma, it seems to me like you are creating a lot of beliefs about enlightenment.. Also realize that preferring happiness over unhappiness or even truth over delusion is all ego-based.

Yes. Green tea will increase your odds of getting enlightened by 500%

This topic may be closed. Thx a lot for the very helpful posts@Pinocchio @jjer94 @Emerald Wilkins @mkieblesz , your post in that other topic yesterday was pure gold imo. I guess there's even a lot more wisdom in jed's books than i initially thought. Leo, your know-all, almost dogmatic and forceful way of preaching enlightenment as the highest value and only way to happiness turns me a bit off — probably partly because there is some truth in it. I know you don't really mean it that way as you said at the end of your enlightenment experience vid, but still, keep always in mind that your perspective is just that- a perspective, and since life is very likely meaningless, there is no ultimate secret or way to live it and no need to take it so seriously. Most people simply prefer the dream over truth and that's just fine, i think jed is quite right in a way and not just dramatizing when he said that truth is a booby-prize. It would also be more convincing if you first got "full enlightenment" before you talked about how heavenly and amazing it is, but i guess you already know that. Anyway, i think some of your videos are awesome so by all means keep going(or not, if it holds you back from finding truth ;-) ).

yeah he goes a bit overboard imo, it almost seems like he gives meaning to the meaninglessness it's quite absurd if you think about it, lol. do you think most people cover this simple fact (unconsiously) out of fear or is it just ignorance? but i also feel the 3rd quote from my first post has a nice point, ego alows us to play. without it you're free, but then what?

Okay, so even though they see that there is no self doesn't make them less selfish per se? Leo makes it seem a bit in his videos as though enlightenment and truth are the highest values, but i guess thats just arbitrary. And isn't it uncomfortable for enlightened to constantly see that your costume is fake while others don't? Just knowing about it makes me already feel a bit unconfortable at times. I don't remember perfectly but i thought he said something like, you can get rid of excitement. Should probably read them again soon i dont know if there even is such a thing

@Emerald Wilkins I would suggest to first become enlightened and then perhaps talk a bit about how amazing and great it is. I can see that the books are over dramatized, but he sure does say over and over again that almost nobody really wants enlightenment. How are you sure to know these other teachers are not just talking bullshit? But what purpose does buying a Ferrari serve other then your own self-agenda? Not to say that it's wrong or something, but if a person has realized that he is not really the person but "the whole of existence", why would he still do things that only benefit the person? I don't really get it, but could just be a misconception on my part. I haven't seen jed reconciling this, he only said that he didn't really cared about fame or fortune. Yeah i can see where your coming from, guess it's all a matter of perspective once again. Enlightenment and the fear of no-self is pretty fascinating anyway. didn't the book of not knowing/pursuing consciousness suggest to get rid of the emotion excitement?

So basically, enlightenment is the only way to be fulfilled and unenlightened people are by definition not fulfilled? I don't know if thats true, but if you believe it to be so it will sure be your reality. But i don't think it will be a very helpful belief unless you are going all the way for enlightenment. Sure fulfillment from non-enlightenment things will be temporary and externally based, but so is everything in life. Even "enlightenment" will end when the body dies. I'll make sure to do before I leave I don't know, won't "trying to become enlightened" just create more "suffering"? 1) As you said in the faq, the permanent deal will probably be different, and you can't really know what it will be like until you go there. 2) Yeah i can see, but he also objects the heaven on earth analogy a lot. The same can be said for every thread here, and pretty much every action one takes besides looking inward But i think it's good to know where all this is going before you start, before you know it, parts of you are gone and there is no going back. Now you might say that is a good thing, but is it? Who knows. I was reading jeds last book, play, this morning and this excerpt from julie's autolysis illustrates the issue perfectly: "What a life... I as a girl, a person, a daughter, a sister, a citizen. I had a life, friends, a career... all gone... plans, marriage, love, motherhood... all gone. Do i miss them? (pause to consider) No. There is no me left to miss anything. That part is gone." This one is also quite on point, lol "They don't tell you about this. They don't tell you because they don't know. But why don't they know? It's all so obvious. What could be more obvious than this? This is literally the most obvious possible thing. How is this, of all things, a mystery? Why don't they teach this in school? History, math, science, are you kidding? Oh my god! Who could possibly care about any of that crap? How can they be so... so vapid? So unconscious? Is it some sort of joke? Some conspiracy? A conspiracy to do what? What is accomplished? What is the end result? Cui bono? Cui bono? All of humanity stays in a state of... rancid dismay, fatuous ignorance, bloated torpor..." But then again, enlightened humanity would also be kinda silly. Not that it's gonna happen anytime soon By the way Leo, i read you newsletter today. How are you ever going to reconcile success and self improvement with enlightenment? The whole idea of "success" is ego-based

@mkieblesz thx man, great post. 1. sure thinking a lot about it, couldn't really sleep at all last night 2. who are they? and what's so bad about regular human life? it can sure suck if you're depressed or stuck in some boring job, but it can also be pretty amazing is my experience. 3. okay, but does that necessarily mean that it's "better"? i guess it's all a matter of perspective.. Well, since i don't really know who i am, how can i know what i want? What compels me to this? I would certainly like to know the truth, but not at any price, at least not right now. Leo's claim that this is the only way to find true happiness and peace of mind also strikes me a bit, and i think that's certainly true to some extend, but i also think jed has a good point that it takes all the amusement out of the amusement park. I also find it just fascinating how all this shit works, and see how strong Maya is in myself and other people, society, and even this forum, are pretty much completely under her control if you take a look. (As much as enlightenment is talked about and how great it is, how many of us are actually gonna wake up? Very very few, is my guess, if any.) Not to say there is anything wrong with it, i think it's perfectly fine.

I feel kinda twisted about it to be honest. I've listened to Leo's enlightenment faqs 10-15 times so the idea that enlightenment is the best thing since sliced bread and everyone should become enlightened is pretty much drilled into my mind, but i also find Jeds arguments for not leaving the park very convincing, for he has been both in and out the park. Other authors like Peter Ralston and Ken Wilber don't really adres this whole issue, and only say that it will "liberate" you. Adyashanti also says the same but also states clearly that truth has nothing to do with becoming better or happier. Unity Consiousness is not the same as Truth Realization/Enlightenment... Leo said the same in some of his videos but i don't know if thats true. I see happiness more like air; you only really care about it when you don't have it. By the way, how far are you guys willing to take this enlightenment shit? If for example, your mom got raped and killed in a brutal way, or if you heard today that you only got a couple days left to live, would you still care about enlightenment? Would you say: "oh nevermind, death is just an illusion created by the mind"? Just curious, feel free to answer whatever's on your mind.

Sure, it's only one perspective but I have not found any relatable enlightened people yet who talk about this enlightenment stuff as though it is the best thing ever like you do. And he's not talking about a glimpse of truth, but the permanent deal. How are you so sure it is that great? I think jed would be the first one to say if it really were. And even if it is, why rush it? Why not just play the game of duality for the little time we can? It's a pretty cool game; you can pretend like you are a separate entity with free will, create the illusion of meaning etc. There will be plenty of time left to enjoy the abiding non-dual awareness after the body's death i guess

Interesting topic... I think the main "benefit" is having a clear mind, but apart from that i don't really see why "you" would pursue enlightenment if you are not a hardcore truth-seeker. Leo always says that it's impossible to be happy without being enlightened and the unenlightened life is a hell, but i don't really think that's completely true, at least not in my experience(or am i lying to myself right now?). I would say it's not so much of a holy grail as some people here make it out to be even though it will liberate you from "you", but unless you are not enjoying the dream that is life or can't stand maya anymore, why wake up? Everyone is gonna wake up eventually, so why rush it? “Make no mistake about it―enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true.” ― Adyashanti Here’s a simple test. If it’s soothing or comforting, if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy; if it’s about getting into pleasant emotional or mental states; if it’s about peace, love, tranquility, silence or bliss; if it’s about a brighter future or a better tomorrow; if it makes you feel good about yourself or boosts your self-esteem, tells you you’re okay, tells you everything’s just fine the way it is; if it offers to improve, benefit or elevate you, or if it suggests that someone else is better or above you; if it’s about belief or faith or worship; if it raises or alters consciousness; if it combats stress or deepens relaxation, or if it’s therapeutic or healing, or if it promises happiness or relief from unhappiness, if it’s about any of these or similar things, then it’s not about waking up. Then it’s about living in the dreamstate, not smashing out of it. On the other hand, if it feels like you’re being skinned alive, if it feels like a prolonged evisceration, if you feel your identity unraveling, if it twists you up physically and drains your health and derails your life, if you feel love dying inside you, if it seems like death would be better, then it’s probably the process of awakening. That, or a helluva case of gas. -Jed McKenna-