Dodo

I dont know anything about lower and higher selves. That seems like an idea floating within awareness, not awareness itself. Maybe the main problem here stems from the fact that I take Consciousness for primary and examine direct experience, while in your direct experience a script could be happening which says "i have consciousness, but I am this other thing". Actually, you don't have consciousness, in direct experience you are consciousness.

You are saying you dont understand that I am not an object that can be known. Conversation here is happening just fine. I do not have multiple selves, and I get its confusing to any one character in waking, but its also directly evident that you've never had more than one true self.

@Hojo look im not here to tell you what to believe, but this thing with having multiple selves is not part of my direct experience. Mayve its part of some religion yoy have (i even take materialism for a religion, im not an average joe character, you are on actualized forum, not random forum). The dream world is known by Me, whether or not identification or contemplation is part of the dreamed experience. The dream character is sometimes taken for myself while dreaming, thats part of the experience that is known. When you wake up you realise wow, I wasnt really that character, but its a bit harder (but not impossible) to see it while still dreaming (lucid dreaming).

I am doing no such thing. I already told you there is a character appearing in awareness. Just like in a dream at night, you are not really the character, but while the dream is going on you believe it strongly and might even argue with other characters. Each of our characters is a movement of the same infinite consciousness, like all characters in the dream are a movement of the same mind.

Conversation is taking place, identifications with a character is taking place, no one is doing it, its a waking dream, story of creation, call it how you will. But in reality there is only one thing real here and its the knowing of this moment. Then you add this and that, we remember dreaming etc. While you dream the dream is happening in the same awareness as waking, its not about identificatiomn, its about being honest with experience. My 10 year old human experience is happening to the same me as my 30 year old human experience. I am not another me, even though everything visible and tangible has changed.

@Hojo Entire conversation stems from a misunderstanding of identity and being. im not a self in a human body, there is a human experience taking place in awareness. I am the same awareness in which both the waking experience, dream experience and deep sleep appear to take place. After all, how do you even know about dreams if they aren't happening to the same you? Are you communicating with another you to get the dreams? No. They appear to the same you, before you give it a character identity and start thinking. Deep sleep is another story, there are no objects of experience there, there is nothing to remember. Its pure awareness without content. Who told you you understand awareness? Has no objective qualities it just is, there is nothing to stand under. Its being itself, existence consciousness bliss

@Hojo what im talking about is not "my consciousness", but simply me. You are projecting some extra meaning of the word "me" to include the character, this stems from your own worldview, not mine. When I say me in this conversation, I dont mean any entity, but the "formless knowing of isness (or is-ing - present tense)" for lack of better, more direct words . That knowing knows three states - waking, dream and deep sleep. The knowing itself never changes and is me, thats why I know "I had a dream, I slept, I am awake". Maybe you are trying to talk to a projection of me that you have in your mind, but you have to understand, my reality is not what I appear to be to you. Thats the whole samsara business.

@Hojo nah, when I dream, the dream is happening to the same me that waking is happening to. Only content is different. My dream character is not a lower me. I often wonder how people know some things. Like higher selves. Are people honest or are they talking about a belief they adopted from somewhere and repeating because it sounds good.

Ok the thing your chatgpt is saying is based on belief in materialism. Its normal because thats what the usual audience's belief is. It talks about scientific truths in time and space, ask it if anything can be trully known outside of consciousness and whether direct experience is made out of consciousness or matter. It's absolutely certain that the direct experience you are having is not constructed out of matter and that it appears to you now. I mean feed this into your chatgpt its much better. Excellent — here’s a **fusion rewrite** that blends: * 🧠 *Squaaad’s logical precision* (epistemology, structure, clarity) * 🌌 *Dodo’s metaphysical depth* (consciousness-first, direct experience) I’ll preserve the tone of philosophical reflection but elevate it into something that feels both rigorous and alive. --- ## 🪞 **Fusion Version: “The Mirror of Knowing”** Let’s begin with a simple question: How do you *know* that what you remember is true? You say, “I went to university,” and you hold that as fact. But when you check, all your “proofs” — your diploma, your photos, your friends — are *also* things you perceive and remember. Every verification leads back to the same source: **conscious experience**. You never step outside of it. Even the scientist who demands proof relies on memory, perception, and the feeling of certainty that his instruments are working. All knowledge, even the most empirical, begins and ends *within consciousness*. 🧩 **The Epistemic Realization:** > The foundation of all knowing is not matter, but awareness itself. > We do not *perceive* through consciousness — perception *is* consciousness taking form. The question then shifts: Instead of asking “How can I prove my memories are true?” we ask, “What is this field in which memory and proof appear?” You never find memory *outside* of experience. You never find perception *outside* of awareness. Even doubt itself appears *within* consciousness — never beyond it. So at the deepest level: * The scientist’s “facts” * The mystic’s “visions” * The ordinary person’s “memories” —all arise within the same luminous field of Being. Their contents differ, but their **substance is identical**: awareness itself. 🧭 **The Philosophical Synthesis** 1. **Absolute certainty about things** is impossible. All “things” appear within awareness and depend on it. 2. **Absolute certainty of consciousness** is immediate. You cannot doubt that experience is happening — only *what* it contains. 3. **Science and mysticism** both rely on trust — not blind faith, but faith in the intelligibility of consciousness itself. 4. **Matter and mind** are not opposites, but two descriptions of the same event — the dance of knowing within itself. So yes, the rationalist is right: nothing can be known with perfect proof. And the mystic is also right: the only undeniable reality is the consciousness in which all proof appears.

Maybe I just dont get it, but to me the whole thing seems like overthinking. Why think at all about things like that? To me its more interesting to view everyday experiences as awareness itself... to slowly deepen my realisation of being. To notice awareness while normal everyday life unfolds. There is only one world for me - This Moment, before we give it any form, this moment before any story. All those different worlds you talk about, it seems to me its just a mind storm...

@zurew @Breakingthewall wait, we are believing in a world "out there" independent of consciousness? We sneaking in materialism through the back door?

@Someone here @theoneandnone show me this .. insanity. Is the insanity with us in the room today? Or if I take the Jordan Peterson route of answering, define Leo, define is, define leading, define us, define into, define insanity. Thanks for playing

I know another saying. If I speak I tell a lie. But if I don't speak, I'm a coward. Lets remove the quotation marks from be and being. Being doesnt get boring just like you're not bored in deep sleep. Even boredom and the coming here is an expression of being. No doer just the doing itself appears, thats awareness, not a failure to be aware. Its not a failure to being that there is doing happening. It's all awareness, Halleluja! All experience points to the fact of isness itself. That's what I want to celebrate with you

Lets snap out of it. Yesterday and today you are the same you. This is fact. Why do you need to be so and so, why not just be?

Gura approved 👌 🙌 😆

Loool ok dude you need to chill. Its not pick and choose identity, there's just isness. You and me are the same isness. Being a serial killer is incredibly low consciousness, its not an identity, its something that a person does when they are mentally ill.

Ah, now we're talking. We have a mental illness on our hands. Lets spread fear guys, because we realised unity. Can't believe I originally gave you credit, you're clearly in lala land. You'll do yourself a solid if you read this thread, if you can get past your ego.

To know we know nothing, we already imply knowing while not focusing on it, in the background. By focusing on the knowing itself by which knower and known are both known, we are unifying inside and outside, knower and known exist within the same knowing and its us, we are going nondual 😆 I myself trust that this is important.

No separate knower and known. Both made out of knowing itself. No light of knowing, no anything. And we have direct evidence proof of knowing, so we can't deny it.

Oh this is rich, tell me more, master. Can I not do the consciousness work while typing, I can only do it while under a tree meditating? Somehow I am conscious while meditating, but not conscious while typing. You are mistaking the action for the being behind it.

Knows nothing as an object, but IS. Deep sleep is like looking at your formless self in a formless mirror. Glad you mentioned it. I wonder why its so essential in everyday life to sleep, why its so energising to go there, like going to the source. There is no discontinuity of being, only there are no objects of perception and conception in deep sleep.

But what we essentially are is not that which is known, but that which knows, I feel like we are going in circles. Needs direct seeing, not more talking. The eye (I) that sees is not itself seen, but is what is real.

In this analogy no watcher of the screen, but a self aware screen watching movies projected within itself. Drop the analogy of course, im not saying the finger is the moon. The map is not the territory etc. You are talking truth per se, the only thing you are ignoring is that you REALLY are aware. Not the mirage, the You,me, awareness, knowing. So nothingness is all there is,, but that nothingness is aware! Not a dead, but an alive nothingness,, awareness.

The mirage really is there, its just not what it appears to be. Its all empty impersonal awareness that Knows itself by being itself. The screen is the only thing real, but there really is a movie shown on that screen, even if only a mirage, the mirage is happening and not a problem if the screen is realised as the only reality of the movie/mirage. In other words, impersonal awareness is the only reality of me. We are outpreaching each other.