Dodo

Do you constantly think about beating your heart or breathing? No, but you do it. You don't do it? How do you know you're not the one who does it? Maybe you have a wrong identification. Maybe you are the one who beats the heart and breathes the breath as well as the conscious stuff too.

I think you miss a point too! You are talking about being free to choose what you dont want... Ofcourse you are free to choose what you dont want. Many do it every day. They go to work, even if they dont want. They do millions of acts that they do not want for different reasons. I would be better at showing you freedom of will in personal conversation, because you will be able to see my unconscious movements as well as the conscious ones, seeing that in reality, I am free to do what has not occurred to me, and am doing it already.

The problem here is not that I disagree with you. You are using exactly the same stuff that I have used in the past. So really you are me, but some years in the past. YOu've listened to the same influencers and these things have become like truths to you. But they are not. There is no way of checking other than to say that we already are the same being expressed in different form. But that is nonsensical to say as well, because that would mean the spider that bites you is also you and it really means nothing to say You then. There is no thing that is the same in me, in you and in every insect on Earth (except emptiness itself) . Right now you have an egoic identity which is You. I have another egoic identity which is Me. The emptiness that connects us, is not really us. It is the space in which both of us exist. Saying that my egoic identity in your body would do the same things is an error. I do not agree with it.

No and thats another big question : Why am I a human and not a fish? Is it my imagination is primary to my body expression? If I had the imagination of a fish, maybe I would be a fish. It could be that from your worldview that what I am is the body, and from that body is risen a mind, from that mind - consciousness - then yeah, body is primary and we are all robots... But maybe it is flipped the other way around and it is exactly due to our freedom of will in consciousness that all of this even exist as this complex human form that feels so free ...

You are dissecting too much. I would have added a dot. It could be many different things added to it to make it unique. I ask you who or what these things occur to? It must be me, the one who has freedom of will. Otherwise, it could not occur to me, I would just be a robot that follows the environment. The environment has an impact, but we have freedom element which is rather invisible so you can't really point to it. You will know it if you realise you can create something from nothing in your mind. It can happen with or without occuring to you that you can. You can just notice it! The freedom is the space in which mind happens. And it is infinite... Determinism / no-freewill is a phase and a way to feel good about what has happened. It is true we cannot change the past. Its ok to look at past deterministically. But not at present.

Hi, Sam Harris, but I have been through all this stuff earlier in my journey. I was always arguing against free will with my friends and everyone. I know the tests proposed by Sam Harris and how convincing it all is. Still I can create a thought right now, which does not exist anywhere else. The real question is, where is the absence of freedom? You are absolutely free to think about things that you do not even know about. You dont have to know your next thought for it to be free. I can imagine non-conceptual thoughts and add 1 to it, it has never existed anywhere else. Trust me, if it existed exactly this way before, it was without the addition of 1. If it existed with the addition of 1, I add another 1. Tell me how is there no freedom, if I can think of something that has never been thought of before? Who feeds me this unique and personalised information?

Thats the big question, how to prepare... And who can we really trust for that... What if organised religion is just the way the devil is targeting his sheep.. and making it look like they are saved... But then the sheep follow the shepherd into the slaughterhouse . I really have trust issues and PTSD as if I've been there already... Might be

That would be true if everything you do and happens depends on environment and conditions. You forget you can make new thoughts out of nothingness. We have unlimited imagination to work with. There is always free will when you can make a duck out of nothingness in your mind. We are definitely robots, what you are explaining is how a robot society would work.

yeah I know the famous Ramana Maharshi quote "everything that can happen will happen, try and stop it" etc etc.. But that can also be seen as you claiming that it will happen in this way rather than that way,.. And if it happens to happen the other way, you simply say "Well this is how it is supposed to happen" The thing is you can claim this is how it is supposed to happen, because it cannot happen in two ways, but that doesn't mean anything, since we can make an impact and change things. They would have been different if we didn't act etc etc. But you would say "There is no "woulds" but there are! In the smallest and in the largest of scales, there definitely are "woulds"! I offer you 2 plans of action: 1) Cut your own hands 2) don't See how there is a difference based on whatever you choose. I know what you will choose, but for the sake of argument, there are 2 possibilities now and it is up to you! If you choose number 1), you will have to type with your feet. If you choose 1) you cannot choose 2), if you choose 2) you cannot choose 1), meaning in both cases it will be what it is. But there is quality difference between the choices. So talking about no free will etc, is only cosmetic, it is not actual.

Do we then conclude that the murderer is a murderer so that the judge can play out his delusion of being a judge? Or for the hero to play out its delusion of being a hero? Kind of making the criminals the real heroes! Wow, they signed up for that?? That's crazy. Selfless souls, to be portrayed as evil, but having no choice.

Something to be said about being prepared or for ways to prevent it. If we just close our eyes about it, it might be the wrong move.

@WelcometoReality i know I can defeat the wicked in a discussion about reality... But they can defeat me by causing me pain... Then it does not matter if I was right or wrong... If i am silenced by force, nobody cares that it's just a thought.. the pain would be real. Sort of like the pain caused by not brushing our teeth...

Yeah but ok, if I am tortured by some hellish beings I can say to myself "its just a thought " but it would still be actually there, like the toothpaste. I do hope I am just projecting stuff, but its scary. Also I do not want to think about it much, because I could be creatimg it by giving it conscious attention. I will even remove my thread now because I know the power of words and dont want to cause this hell loop to other souls.

I have just opened a similar thread to this. Now these things can be imagined, but so is our toothpaste?

I think just do as your body says, I have not tried fasting on purpose, it only happens by itself when the time is right. But it is also connected to being ready to die consciously... Because you would be afraid "how come im not eating, how am I surviving and have all this energy" sort of thing. And crazy things can happen that you dont know how are happening. I think food makes reality more real and less food makes reality more wonky.

My spiritual experiences as of recent are always together with a natural fast. My organism just stops desiring for food, but reality gets quite wonky and should be done if one knows how to ground themselves and the energies... Because one can really lose their mind on these trips

Thats just mental masturbation instead of doing the actual work ;D But I am doing the same thing so. Shame on me

Look Iam the consciousness which says "I am", I am is being itself, it always is being'd... But that doesnt mean your mind does not need a rest. Meditation is like performing general scans on your system. To know thyself deeply from within, you might say. I am not fooling myself into anything, as I meditate for the love of meditating itself. Meditation for me means to be aware that I am aware and sink into that feeling knowing of existence itself. Pure beingnessand isness. But sometimes the story gets very challenging and I have to start doing and I sometimes lose the calm and bliss of being!

just because you cant do nothing doesn't mean others cant D: There is a qualitative difference between sitting in meditation and when doing something. The magnitude of peacefulness is so much deeper when alone with the heart, no drama no mind. That is do nothing, and then I accept any movement because that is part of the nothingness. Uncreated, natural movement allowed. I don't sit like a statue, many tense up too much while meditating. It's the number 1 self help habit to have... Now Leo is on about other things, but for me he hit gold with the meditation habit.

Yeah but what I mean is, we could just sit and meditate all day, actively not doing. Doing I mean events you do with body. I get your saying but there is definitely a difference between being a vegetable and doing stuff in outside world as well. By Outside world, i mean that which body can interact with.

I would suggest that for humans and other intelligent beings it is about the balancing between being and doing. A tree and lightning do not have the opportunity to do, they can only be and passively grow (for vegitation). Humans are a complicated bunch with many perverted minds and many blinded by perceived superiority to the rest of creation. Creates a lot of imbalance and it is up to us to balance this play or we go the way of the dodo! (which is a horrible expression... Dodo birds were very gentle creatures and didn't deserve what happened to them... Much bad karma for humanity right there... But we can make it better, we can be better.)

or if he does, it is not really gambling for God. If you have unlimited resources, you are not gambling. Only if your resources are finite can you lose or gain anything.. So it is not up to me whether God play dice or not, but if he does, its not equal to the human one. Its impossible made possible, whichever way we look at it, if we say that reality came out of nothingness. Here is a quote that my ex-girlfriend has given me, way before I even was into spirituality: "Remember that this world is not real! It is a battlefield of opposing forces, where we learn the practice of overcoming that which appears to be using that which we know is the true reality" (true reality aka Love, as mentioned by Leo). - Richard Bach If we try to understand how all of this works etc, we might become insane... There are so many little details that go way way deep. One can get lost simply in one area because it is infinite and always has more to understand... So it is better to just leave it to love and act as/in love so we are tuned with the force that moves all this.

It is ultimately paradoxical and mind will not be able to grasp how God works... It may appear this way or that, and when you think you've figured it out, it would be the opposite. A wasp is just as much you as the other forum members here. Go and catch a wasp and see if it stings you... Sometimes you are not supposed to trust everyone and everything, even if they are you as another incarnation. I for one, can only trust myself, and even more so, can only trust my conscious self. I cannot really trust the unconscious parts of me. You should wait fr response from someone else on this topic, but from my understanding, life is a game and battle field of polarities. Be nondual at your discresion, there might be wasp -selves, unconscious selves, which have not reached the realisation of oneness. And that's how it should be, because thats how it is..