Dodo

another super philosophy to keep ego in place! but there is a remedy as they say ego is not to be gotten rid of, but seen through as illusion and then it falls away naturally!

The universe can make it appear how we dont like. I dont know her personally, lol, but I assume she has a much bigger wisdom than the entire population of earth as a collective (let alone one man)

The universe can make anything happen. Individual can not make a single thing happen. The universe can make it appear any way it likes. I've seen its powers at play and ive seen miracles, but I have not seen one person perform miracles, except charlatans and tricky magicians. Im not saying its not possible, but I havent seen!

this is a super philosophy to keep the ego. Comes from ego. You cant say more ego means no ego because it is how it is. Just no, stahp it, ego, stahp it.

Be sure, you are not alone... Love is unity.. On any level.. Could be unity of souls, or of people, or of atmans.. Points... Emptinesses in different locations within absolute emptiness / infinities inside absolute infinity... Beings created by a loving God that values Love above all else... You name it ? if you are in relationship you have to acknowledge the Truth in the other, as well as yourself.. I guess the being element...

Ok but can you accept possibility that thats only one way its experienced over there and another way over here or elsewhere.. What im getting at is the healthy realisation of ultimate not knowing, rather than claiming an ultimate knowing. I agree you might have reached an ultimate knowing of Yourself (doubt cause infinitely deep), but thats all you have authority over.. Basically i can be you in your worldview, but allow for other beings to claim their own independent existence also, since you cannot know another's experience you cant really talk about it with confidence!

To me all you're saying sounds like one entity attempting to say that they know/understand the ultimate reality. Just another ego trip in my view tho! It seems like we are attempting to boil down reality into something really simple like this. And using words like nothing and everything which are pointers to things that cannot be experienced and hence everyone has a different projection when they are mentioned... All those projections not it.. But still we use the words.. To seem like we know, our idea of nothingness and everythingness cant be wrong.

Ok I mean I can entertain this as a mental exercise, but its really not experiential? Or is it? To me it seems like the king is naked and we are just scared to call it how it is... I stubbed my toe. What's the problem with duality? Its the ultimate nondual thing to accept duality and play ▶

yea but when you stub your toe, where does nonduality go. Is there really no one who stubbed their toe? Who goes to the toilet? Awareness does not go !

That would be the case for a robot, not for an alive being! You misperceive what human is.

I agree no free will in the past. Anything that happened happened there is no point to think about how it could be different, unless that knowledge can be applied now for the better. Otherwise its a waste of time. But the scalpel of no free will ends there. Scalpel of no free will cannot enter the present moment, as it is too small for it. If you think my thoughts appear and then I write them, that's misunderstanding of how my mind works. There are so many things happening, but one thing is certain. Everything that comes out of the present moment is fresh and new. Even a regurgitated thought of the past is fresh and new. And I can write thousands of words without even having a conceptual thought in my mind. The fingers just go about the keys and write. Anything I write to you is fresh and new. And yes, I did not gather what im saying from an infinite database that im aware of beforehand so I can say I've chosen every word with complete freedom of choice. Thats not what free will is to begin with. Its a misperception of free will that you have to know everything in order to be free in your choice.

Ok but you see what you're saying is that you have decided, from your own free will to not "try to be how you're not" because its more of "how you are" if you did that. So that means its perfectly cool to do that. Why are you choosing not to? Free will. More of that free will, but you unconsciously think it's not free, because you've not explored to the limits and beyond them. (or you have and forgot) I can be on both sides of this argument. It's about perspective and thinking that any one of the two points of view has won the argument is not correct.

Do you constantly think about beating your heart or breathing? No, but you do it. You don't do it? How do you know you're not the one who does it? Maybe you have a wrong identification. Maybe you are the one who beats the heart and breathes the breath as well as the conscious stuff too.

I think you miss a point too! You are talking about being free to choose what you dont want... Ofcourse you are free to choose what you dont want. Many do it every day. They go to work, even if they dont want. They do millions of acts that they do not want for different reasons. I would be better at showing you freedom of will in personal conversation, because you will be able to see my unconscious movements as well as the conscious ones, seeing that in reality, I am free to do what has not occurred to me, and am doing it already.

The problem here is not that I disagree with you. You are using exactly the same stuff that I have used in the past. So really you are me, but some years in the past. YOu've listened to the same influencers and these things have become like truths to you. But they are not. There is no way of checking other than to say that we already are the same being expressed in different form. But that is nonsensical to say as well, because that would mean the spider that bites you is also you and it really means nothing to say You then. There is no thing that is the same in me, in you and in every insect on Earth (except emptiness itself) . Right now you have an egoic identity which is You. I have another egoic identity which is Me. The emptiness that connects us, is not really us. It is the space in which both of us exist. Saying that my egoic identity in your body would do the same things is an error. I do not agree with it.

No and thats another big question : Why am I a human and not a fish? Is it my imagination is primary to my body expression? If I had the imagination of a fish, maybe I would be a fish. It could be that from your worldview that what I am is the body, and from that body is risen a mind, from that mind - consciousness - then yeah, body is primary and we are all robots... But maybe it is flipped the other way around and it is exactly due to our freedom of will in consciousness that all of this even exist as this complex human form that feels so free ...

You are dissecting too much. I would have added a dot. It could be many different things added to it to make it unique. I ask you who or what these things occur to? It must be me, the one who has freedom of will. Otherwise, it could not occur to me, I would just be a robot that follows the environment. The environment has an impact, but we have freedom element which is rather invisible so you can't really point to it. You will know it if you realise you can create something from nothing in your mind. It can happen with or without occuring to you that you can. You can just notice it! The freedom is the space in which mind happens. And it is infinite... Determinism / no-freewill is a phase and a way to feel good about what has happened. It is true we cannot change the past. Its ok to look at past deterministically. But not at present.

Hi, Sam Harris, but I have been through all this stuff earlier in my journey. I was always arguing against free will with my friends and everyone. I know the tests proposed by Sam Harris and how convincing it all is. Still I can create a thought right now, which does not exist anywhere else. The real question is, where is the absence of freedom? You are absolutely free to think about things that you do not even know about. You dont have to know your next thought for it to be free. I can imagine non-conceptual thoughts and add 1 to it, it has never existed anywhere else. Trust me, if it existed exactly this way before, it was without the addition of 1. If it existed with the addition of 1, I add another 1. Tell me how is there no freedom, if I can think of something that has never been thought of before? Who feeds me this unique and personalised information?

Thats the big question, how to prepare... And who can we really trust for that... What if organised religion is just the way the devil is targeting his sheep.. and making it look like they are saved... But then the sheep follow the shepherd into the slaughterhouse . I really have trust issues and PTSD as if I've been there already... Might be

That would be true if everything you do and happens depends on environment and conditions. You forget you can make new thoughts out of nothingness. We have unlimited imagination to work with. There is always free will when you can make a duck out of nothingness in your mind. We are definitely robots, what you are explaining is how a robot society would work.

yeah I know the famous Ramana Maharshi quote "everything that can happen will happen, try and stop it" etc etc.. But that can also be seen as you claiming that it will happen in this way rather than that way,.. And if it happens to happen the other way, you simply say "Well this is how it is supposed to happen" The thing is you can claim this is how it is supposed to happen, because it cannot happen in two ways, but that doesn't mean anything, since we can make an impact and change things. They would have been different if we didn't act etc etc. But you would say "There is no "woulds" but there are! In the smallest and in the largest of scales, there definitely are "woulds"! I offer you 2 plans of action: 1) Cut your own hands 2) don't See how there is a difference based on whatever you choose. I know what you will choose, but for the sake of argument, there are 2 possibilities now and it is up to you! If you choose number 1), you will have to type with your feet. If you choose 1) you cannot choose 2), if you choose 2) you cannot choose 1), meaning in both cases it will be what it is. But there is quality difference between the choices. So talking about no free will etc, is only cosmetic, it is not actual.

Do we then conclude that the murderer is a murderer so that the judge can play out his delusion of being a judge? Or for the hero to play out its delusion of being a hero? Kind of making the criminals the real heroes! Wow, they signed up for that?? That's crazy. Selfless souls, to be portrayed as evil, but having no choice.

Something to be said about being prepared or for ways to prevent it. If we just close our eyes about it, it might be the wrong move.

@WelcometoReality i know I can defeat the wicked in a discussion about reality... But they can defeat me by causing me pain... Then it does not matter if I was right or wrong... If i am silenced by force, nobody cares that it's just a thought.. the pain would be real. Sort of like the pain caused by not brushing our teeth...

Yeah but ok, if I am tortured by some hellish beings I can say to myself "its just a thought " but it would still be actually there, like the toothpaste. I do hope I am just projecting stuff, but its scary. Also I do not want to think about it much, because I could be creatimg it by giving it conscious attention. I will even remove my thread now because I know the power of words and dont want to cause this hell loop to other souls.