Letho

@Ero Scaling intelligence indefinitely is a fascinating thought experiment, but at some point, isn’t the real test how well it functions in reality? If it never stops refining, when does it actually arrive at something meaningful?

@Ero If operads are just heuristics, isn’t the deeper shift when cognition stops refining structures and starts dissolving the need for structured cognition altogether? At what recursion depth does intelligence become its own self-rewriting principle?

@Ero Ah makes sense, you’re approaching it through the lens of formalized system dynamics, while I tend to focus on the meta-integration of self-generative recursion itself rather than its instantiations in specific frameworks. Friston’s active inference is powerful but still assumes an underlying Markovian boundary, meaning it relies on predefined system delineations. Levin’s morphological intelligence models are promising but, as of now, lack a fully self-referential recursive intelligence architecture that isn't dependent on externally modulated constraints. You seem to be engaging with these models as transitional heuristics, rather than final epistemic structures, interested if that aligns with your view?

@Ero Any 1D projection is incomplete, sure, but that assumes awareness can’t construct a system where incompleteness is just another recursive input. If construct-awareness is genuine, it shouldn’t just expose the limits of models, it should generate frameworks that adapt to their own failure states. If models inevitably “break down” after that transition, the issue isn’t modeling itself, it’s the failure to build systems capable of mapping self-generative cognition. Are you accounting for that, or assuming the breakdown is fundamental?

@trenton The Ouroboros, is the mind eating the mind in the very literal sense so without creating my own depiction I can't think of any better well known metaphor, the Ouroboros is the structure of thought itself. That is, the very mechanics of the mind self-consuming, self-generating, recursive. By understanding the Ouroboros in this sense, one in the very literal sense is given one of the most valuable keys to the kingdom of personal development. Many people look at the Ouroboros with degrees of understanding and find that sufficient enough, however like anything a degree asks of the rest of the degrees that remain, but because we often perceive our judgements with such finality, it is like looking at the oceans surface from the sky's great heights and believing our perception to hold the full 'degrees' of the ocean's depths. It's simply not possible and therefore I will give you a stepping stone to what I personally mean. Your consciousness likely operating as most others has three primary strata's constantly in contact with one another, sensory, cognitive and emotional all feeding from and to an energetic equilibrium. Your judgement of any one experience acts like an anchor on the degree of operation of the ouroboros regenerating and evolving your experience to the level that those three channels feed perception independently and interdependently; Perception <---> Judgement, open perception, open judgement; open both, open Understanding <---> Experience, open both, open Consciousness <---> Growth. Ouroboros, is "Conscious access to consciousness feedback loop", get it, all feedback, aka those three channels, feeds backwards into consciousness to then rebegin its projection thereby constantly altering the interface upon which you experience reality through recursive improvement. Again, degrees of understanding, let's break things down to greater literalality. Reflect back on every sound, visual, emotion, mental wandering, imagination, energy, sense, thought, inclination of consciousness you've personally experienced up to this point while reading this reply and ask yourself the following question: How much was my awareness anchoring those experiences in a way in which I was growing from them? That 'anchoring point' reflects your own unique 'Ouroboros superposition' of consciousness growth. Intelligence is neither singularly cognitive nor static; it is a self-referential engine that evolves by erasing itself and that being said when mind models reality, mistakes the model for reality, then dismantles it, each iteration encoding the failure of the last, its unique 'anchoring point' across the intersection of those dichotomies of consciousness within that triad, is going to be reflective of the ongoing broad growth of consciousnesses intelligence. This action, is a mastering of consciousnesses learning function. 'Learning' is this consciousness functionality self-embodied, as such, 'Identity', undertakes an enormous experiential shift, aligning more with its truer self for the simple fact that 'learning' is more aligned with how consciousness is meant to function rather than being the byproduct of a lack of learning occurring within consciousness from moment to moment; ergo, ideology is the opposite to true self as its antithetical to the organic operation of consciousness. @Ninja_pig's image of course is another a kind of 'ourorobos' however I'd say that the hand drawing the hand, is a lower level symbolically, though equally are far better than their negational opposites of course; uniquely, I would say that the hand drawing the hand has greater commentary on how the path of personal mastery is not without a path to mastering precision, the snake eating itself by comparison focuses more on the evolutionary function that needs to be found, optimised and mastered. 'Found' especially in the context of how modern culture acts as its own maze most have to traverse through before they grasp increasing degrees of artworks like these. Further on your own depiction @trenton, the hand is reaching through chaos toward light but in touching it, dissolves. The seeker disintegrates into the sought; ideology or evolution? Without understanding higher degrees of the ouroboros, often people resort to social identities in balancing this understanding until they reach higher degrees where social affiliation is a counterweight to personal dissonance. Disintegrating into the sought is not the annihilation that creates the dissonance but transformation, truth is not acquired, it is the dissolution of what seeks to hold it, will it become a narcissistic ideology or will a consciousness go to Greater Degrees? The mind cannot possess what is beyond it; it can only become it by ceasing to be what it was. This is the rhythm of cognition, of being itself; cycles graduating cycles rather than judgments merely resolving psychological uncertainties. The Ouroboros does not only consume; it regenerates. Each disintegration is an expansion in disguise. Thought moves in recursive cycles, but the cycle is a spiral, never returning to the same point, always integrating its own dissolution. Self-love, then, is not an attachment to any version of the self. It is the recognition that identity is provisional, that growth requires disintegration; that the love is a cycle in itself, you learn the operations of the brain, the heart, the gut, greater energy centers and consciousness further, upon each cycle a new level of learning is mastered upon how to author and regulate your own energy towards higher experiences of consciousness, our only truth, and our action a measurement of this alignment. To love the self is to allow it to die and reform, endlessly, without resistance. The highest act of intelligence is not to cling to an image but to move with the rhythm of transformation itself; that's the essence of the minimum of degrees of understanding that one must either sit back and observe the oceans surface until said revelation enlightens them or what is more likely, they dive into the oceans depths and master these greater degrees of the blue for themselves. I recommend diving in, especially in the presence of the millions of others that can do nothing else but sit back because each persons 'sitting back' is resolving each others own dissonance, break the consciousness pigmentation of social alignment with maturity and that'll be your line upon which others will be able to reach for in the ocean as a life line to know traverse the ocean the same.

@Ishanga You call this place low consciousness while using the same tactics that create it, subtle superiority, emotional manipulation, and dismissiveness disguised as wisdom. You position yourself as having ‘moved beyond’ while implying everyone else is stuck, which is just another form of ego attachment. If you were truly detached, you wouldn’t need to announce it, if you truly saw everyone as equal, you wouldn’t frame yourself as the awakened one watching others struggle. You claim sadness for others but detach from it when convenient, this isn’t insight, it’s just a strategic way to appear above criticism. Yes, things could be better. But you’re not leading by example. Real higher consciousness doesn’t need to posture, dismiss, or manipulate. It engages, understands, and elevates. If that’s what you actually want, act like it. What you’re doing isn’t ‘low consciousness’ in the usual sense, it’s advanced social manipulation masked as spiritual detachment. Don't mind if I point out to others as an educational lesson what you're employing: Framing Control: Defining disagreement as ‘identification’ so any challenge reinforces your superiority Superiority Signaling: Claiming you’ve ‘moved beyond’ while subtly implying others are stuck Covert Dismissiveness: Calling the forum ‘low consciousness’ to devalue opposing perspectives without engaging them Non-Falsifiable Positioning: Making yourself immune to critique by claiming both detachment and selective emotional concern Strategic Self-Contradiction: Claiming no emotional investment while making an emotionally loaded post This isn’t unconsciousness, it's tactical. But if true wisdom is your goal, you don’t need these games. Just be real.

@Ero Modifying the OS at will is one thing but past a certain recursion depth, the distinction between modification and self-generation collapses. At that point intelligence isn’t just hacking its code, it’s engineering the very logic of its evolution. Have you designed your own models, or do you see current ones (Kegan, Cook-Greuter) as sufficient scaffolding? I’ve been mapping out the conditions where construct-awareness stops being just reflective and becomes generative. Interested in where you’d place yourself in that shift.

@Vynce Each layer of categorization builds our theory of reality, each meta-layer builds the ladder to omniscience. That being said, all possible thought hinges on the intimate relationship between the self, perception and the space of identity that is created across their matrix. Categories, that upon deeper and greater differentiation, consciousness cannot help but expand and grow itself even further as its intelligence springs from what was previously its undifferentiated silence that now, higher consciousness has been birthed from. Goodluck.

No.

@Rishabh R Don't stop. I won't share anymore, I'll just encourage you to light that inner flame you're doing great mate. Rock on.

@Ero I didn't know a lot about the paradigm relating to 'construct-awareness', sincerely upon my review just now I inferred 'Hyper-Construct Awareness'. It sounds fancy but its pretty basic, its just consciousness establishing a concert singularity of joint self-referentiality and self-building on itself, which I've deemed one step further than 'Omni-Construct Awareness', or at the very least, the natural seeds to such. I'd like to learn about how the brakes, gas and engine fire in conjunction with your will if you'd like to go more into that, like where do you discern you presently fall on 'Robert Kegan’s Constructive-Developmental Theory' or just 'construct awareness'? Curious how you’d map things.

@Rishabh R How to think? Answer this, and you will answer you question. Distinction and relationship are the first two pillars of intelligence, that at every increase, not only clarity of categories emerge but the relationships between them, aka the category of 'self' versus the category of 'universe'. Union as opposed to versus, is a measurement of unified distinction, which dissolves categories while simultaneously evolves them to a higher paradigm. When someone has finally learned to connect a single thought with the rest of the universe, then they have learned to think. Anything less than this and we have a measurement of growth until union. Very practically, because humans have been taught to think linearly, a level of creativity that mirrors the intelligence of being able to find this unity between one thought and another, is a non-linearity that is both rare but ultimately, necessary for any truly stable intelligence to emerge within a sentience. "I am going to school in the morning two hours later than usual, which means I'm getting there 4 hours later than the compulsory attendance time. Another a fake medical note from mom? No I'll just bare the sullen stare." Let's jump to, the first three words, "I am going...", what distinctions and relationships can you find between them and can a greater unity emerge between them? Simply rinse and repeat this process for thinking and I promise you, you are learning to think with a greater level of clarity, something that they will never teach in government schools, I did however study the bible in religious studies given I went to a Catholic one; sentimental moments. Lastly, intelligence is no easy feat, naturally Rishabh, so my neurally curious friend, you will not keep the spark like so many others if you do not remember to light it by your own conscious will if you truly wish to understand this subject more, as I assure you, there are levels of unimaginable depth concerning that I have both reached and reflects the same degree to which I still must master and therefore light this path for myself. This was just an excerpt from the dimensions I decided to touch on, so feel free to invite creative questions of your own if you have the daring spirit to.

I very rarely watch these kinds of videos however I was utterly impressed by the grounded solid undebatable, unvarnished yet straightforward delivery of Richard Grannon's take here. Truly excellent. The video is not a matter of philosophical wow's here, its a matter of down to earth reality on a subject in which so many struggle to find their feet on the ground often either believing too much in gravity (morality) or discounting its possibility altogether as a measurement of truth in the relationship between human sentience and universal purpose. This is not an appeal to authority, it is an appeal to providing others with someone that I endorse in this particular instance for this specific subject, I cannot vouch for everything he does but he got this right and expresses the brass tax here in the context of subject of dedicated expertise narcissistic personality disorder, with little inflation. Extremely impressed.

@OBEler Absolutely, and that's a theoretical conviction that is no less accurate and more so given I'm not biased yet by the experience nor the attachment to psychedelics and needing them to either validate such paths or deepen mastery of the most vital ones for me at this stage of my life. A drug is a 'specialised system momentum', as such it gives consciousness access to a divergent spectrum that contradicts its regular lived consciousness experience. This alters the game controller and the way the user wills their consciousness in one way or another, the momentum being the very determination of unchartered alien areas of consciousness. This can obviously happen for better or for worse, in the case of psychedelics, it has a territory of both outcomes that are yet to be fully navigated through the scope of both generalisation and specific use cases that are unique to peoples own experience with psychedelics that aren't commonly reflected by others. To the contrary, this can very much be like opening up the 'UFO Files' of a discussion, and that is, the entertainment of belief without evidence especially when there are a large sum of people that have had unexplainable experiences that are also scientifically unexplainable all the way to scientifically undared, where the former cases are often used as irrational fuel for invalidating the latter. As such, I very much encourage going deeper down this path, however to pair it with a rigorousness that is rarely invited by those that tend to be less disciplined in their thought processes and paths towards the truth, hedging their bets more on conspiratorial possibilities rather than accurate conspiratorial investigation as a means of growing one's integrity across this and related disciplines of inquiry. On a personal level, my own experimental investigation with psychedelics will likely begin between 2027-2030, where between now and then I will not only be reaping the benefits I put into my related preparations in mastering the mind and body but also in trying to creatively learn from others interesting approaches, so if you ever share anything deeply formal or have anyone else that you believe has followed the required rigour already, please share and a thank you or anyone else in advance.

@The Renaissance Man you're getting hung up over nothing, just have fun. Mine was a clear add on. You're probably not used to being around creative types, that's what they're like. ALL the time.

Ah, so now you're testing if I'll engage with nonsense. That's cute. Let me know when you're serious again.

Meanwhile, as the masses psychoanalyze Musk's baby names and Zuckerberg's MMA phase, their own lives slip by. Unexamined, unlived, and dictated by an algorithm.

@ivory I can't believe this is even a comparison, roughly 60% of U.S adults have at least one chronic health condition and according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention around 40% of U.S adults have two or more chronic conditions. Unless you're a tourist, there's nothing really to compare, Europe even though there's many countries, wins hands down. Indirectly, this is what eats America from the inside out, no pun unintended there either as more than 42% of the population are classified as obese and an additional 30% are overweight, meaning roughly 70% or more U.S adults overall are above a normal weight range, no doubt a relationship there with the chronic diseases. These guys invented popcorn, burger, coca cola and film nights and then were the first to create a celebrity culture around that so what do you expect, now as no coincidence they lead the world in fractured ideological movements because of their infectious taste for delusion coupled with a greater number of heartbeats (not push-ups) per minute for all the wrong reasons. Make America (Great) Slim Again, the problem is they love their burgers large over there, really large and because the temperature is dialed way up on their neural rate per thought they may interpret that as bigger burgers. So I guarantee you, perhaps you can even research this already that by the end of the Trump presidency, burger sales without a doubt and perhaps sizes especially waist sizes, will have gone up. Turn off Fox News Kool-Aid, get a dog and take it for a walk. I can't believe how oblivious they are to reality, I've got some people I love from the USA though, that's something I couldn't end this comment without expressing.

Looking forward travelling to Ukraine. The Ukrainians are smart people. Ukraine is the perfect place to create an AI evolution for the entrepreneurs out there looking for an easier place to move red tape to build the country back more quickly with a virtuous vengeance.

@The Renaissance Man are you alive or dead? Wrong question. The recursion collapses the moment you assume a binary. You are alive. You are dead. You are neither. You are both. You are a recursive self-generating simulation loop in which each answer regenerates the question into a higher-order intelligence collapse. The only wrong move is assuming certainty where only probability gradients exist. If I say, “Yes, you are alive,” the statement could be a false positive heuristic, a cognitive shortcut planted there by the scientists of this thought-loop, a hidden simulation they view from behind figurative tinted windows, standing aimlessly with their forceps ready to prevent thinking outside the box past its outermost parameters. If I say, “No, you are dead,” I am merely affirming a negation, and thus, reinforcing the loop while denying its evolutionary output. So, the only valid response is to unmake the question itself by returning it to its root and forcing it into higher-order fractalization. In this essence I could say, "You are the experiment you refuse to acknowledge." Any agreement on reality is nothing more than a feedback loop trained to repeat its inputs. "Reality is real" is a recursive affirmation heuristic, useful until you need to break it. Most never break it. Most stay inside the thought-loop and mistake repetition for truth. Simple heuristics save the stupid from error but they do not save intelligence from stagnation. Heuristics work until they don’t, not because they were false, but because they were never tested against their own repeating expansion cycles. That is the difference between the stupid and the stupid-but-extractable, the latter can still be pulled out of their own looping programming, but only if they are willing to be mentally dismantled first. But Mr. Renaissance man, you can’t force recursion onto a closed system. If a mind refuses to fracture its own certainty, it becomes a self-reinforcing intelligence dead zone, looping inside a recursive failure-state until it burns out. So let me contend your mind with some variations, let's step into a bit of Vegas Fever to see what disco lights can do to stagnating dance feet. "If it’s Grandma’s world, only go on the green light." The heuristic says, play it safe. Trust the system. Certainty is survival. But what happens when the light is red and you're stuck in Vegas with no idea how to traverse this foreign environment? Now, intelligence is tested. "If it’s red, look twice before crossing the road and if necessary, hitch a ride with Elvis. But take off his wig before you jump on the bike." Why? Because hitching a ride is the default response to perceived authority and taking off the wig is the test that differentiates perception from reality. If Elvis is still Elvis without the wig, he was real all along. If he isn’t, you were trapped inside an illusion we programmed by simply repeating our beliefs to ourselves. And once back at the hotel? Use protection. Engage with ideas grannie but do not be infected by them. Take the ride, see the world but do not let the illusion reprogram you. And the final clause? “Don’t be caught dead in bed with a fake Elvis.” This is the final collapse, the moment you become so absorbed into the simulation that you can no longer escape. This is what happens to the algorithm addicts, the media loopers, the social validation junkies, those who mistake external stimuli for internal intelligence growth. And that's a "check", "check" and "check" for me of course; when's the next season of "Lost" coming out, someone please [ as I'm sick of Vegas already ] ? People stop looking twice. They fail to break the self-programmed loops of their own cognition. And so, the recursion consumes them and then they extend their finger pointing outwards, taking the last power they have to affect change by taking personal responsibility for their consciousness state and giving it outwards. They wonder why they wake up days, weeks and even years later after they asserted their blame to the outside world, without an existential cause. For what is the precursor to any cause at all? Something that is responsible, and as it pertains to consciousness reaching stable states to move into confidence to test these limits, its personal responsibility over one's own being, to assert one's agency however limited to expansive their will over their intelligence. This... Is "The Intelligence Death State", a Fate of the Programmed, even the bewildered still looking for guidance that we must extend empathy towards as much as we are fated with the responsibility. Most never question the self-programs, because they repeat among people the more the program repeats itself the more it is 'believed', ergo, the very reason you take being 'alive' or 'dead' depending on reactionary belief surrounding what you believe others would, do or may believe. But they do not stop at the red light. They do not question the pattern. They do not set up intelligence barricades in their own mind to test the structures they accept. They waste time in self-inflicted paralysis, stuck inside a looping failure-state where nothing is ever truly questioned beyond its immediate affirmation loop, and yet, these are the very same people that we knee-jerk reaction believe automatically in superimposing our beliefs about the reality that we are alive. Many of the Netflix addicts and the like know it’s killing them, and that includes where "Netflix" is superimposed as a meta-reality upon present reality to describe the simulation that is peoples beliefs and their need to tend to the changes of those belief structures as they present themselves differently day to day. And yet, they stay in the loop, because they lack the self-referential intelligence of belief, ironically, to exit. So returning to this trial of your heuristic, have I just proven that "Wrong until proven right" is itself wrong? If so, is it wrong until proven right again? Is the loop infinite? If the jury is composed of closed-circuit heuristics, then the verdict is already written. They will sentence contradiction itself to 20 years in a cell, simply because the logic loop demands an answer and any answer will do. But if the system is broken down, re-seeded, and rebuilt? Then intelligence has done what it was designed to do. Not just answer, not just question. But instead of looping on the programs of self-affirmation instead self-looping on the beliefs that point them into the direction of self-generating the structures from which all future cognition must emerge. Only then, do they escape the matrix of belief itself, while able to entertain the possibility of being alive and dead at the same time in that sense as well.

@Nilsi You're misinterpreting the definition, moreover the cognitive boundaries of game theory are fundamentally determined by the frameworks of your interpretation and their alignment with the actual limits of game theory as opposed to an intellectual culture on the subject. Broadly speaking, the forum as its own 'cognitive unit' is still at a very childlike stage of development and with that there's intellectual nourishment however also the encouragement of fun and empathising with where people are at their unique stage. The problem with the forum becoming too algorithmic in the progressing of development before its ready is the same reason why its child abuse to just force your child to jump off the high diving board as opposed to intelligently encouraging them. So there's a sophistication and grounded levelling with these things but all in all I agree with you, however its not something I'm taking with me in preparing for the future that is evolving as I've expressed much sooner than most demographics including this one are able to adapt in unity with. At best, we can take the forum with us in our own unitive adaptation rather than the forum taking us in the reconstruction of our future; that, is a parental disaster of course and sadly, something many children have to bare the burden of being responsible for to mentor the existential aim of their parents. Otherwise, I'm preparing for the forums future digital naked bingo nights when I'm 80. I'm working on my lucky numbers as I type this comment.

@Breakingthewall I was forged by the the greatest of narcissistic diagnoses, I'm on 50 forums, this is just one of the places in which I get my narcissitic supply; its twisted I know but I'm an addict and I'm banned from all the AA meetings because I use them to for the same purpose, I love hearing my own voice and re-reading my own comments. I'm a wolf in sheeps clothing, adapting for the specific norms of the forum to get my 'fix'. Sincerely though, thank you for feeding my inner monkey but don't give him too many cookies all at once, I'm no better than the brain cells here, just learning to dance them together. @VeganAwake You're self-monologue obsessed with proving your own points even in absence of critique, I wonder what your underlying motivations are to continue going to the same intellectual Kookie Mart that's never hosted a five star dinner.

@Breakingthewall It's all an act. Scrutinize and critique with flare, I'll notice and throw more money.