Minini

the 'greater good' here is a subjective assessment. The greater good for who exactly? Is it really the greater good from an objective standpoint to make a shelter for one population by turning another population into scattered refugees?

Worth checking regarding this topic. Avi Shlaim is an Israeli historian.

I am not saying hezbullah are good guys. I am saying it doesn't feel right to celebrate this while turning a blind eye to the hundreds or thousands of Lebanese civilians that were also killed to achieve this ~ just like the Syrians. Two wrongs don't make a right.

@Heaven If anything I genuinely feel sorry for Israelis. They are isolating themselves in the region by setting their neighbors on fire and think they would survive living in it for eternity.

That's an inappropriate thing to say considering the hundreds of Lebanese civilians that got killed to achieve this goal. It's one thing to recognize the evil in both sides and it's another thing to actually cheer the devilry being committed by either side. The same UAE that is arming and fueling the genocide in Sudan?

very logical indeed. what's also logical is that you can't abuse people for too long and expect no bites in return. Also, even wars have rules according to the international law. So, it's not really a war that fits the modern age, it's more like a savage war or a mass destruction campaign only the tools are the sophisticated thing.

I understand this is possibly your approach to relativize conflicts and prevent judgment and radicalization, but honestly though how could 'sloppy bombing' be anything other an a clear intention of mass destruction? It doesn't matter if they say they only intend to kill Hamas, we live in a physical world where indiscriminate bombing will surely result in mass deaths that could lead up to genocide if not stopped.

But that's the actual trajectory that it ended up in. Choosing a land that already had people and resorting to violence to establish the state. The idea itself CAN be innocent, but it didn't end up to be because they insisted on the 'Holy Land'.

Revisionist Zionist Vladimir Jabotinsky one of the fathers of Zionism, in an essay titled The Iron Law (1925) wrote that: “A voluntary reconciliation with the Arabs is out of the question either now or in the future. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison for the land, or find some rich man or benefactor who will provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else-or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempt to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not difficult, not dangerous, but IMPOSSIBLE!… Zionism is a colonization adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important… to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonizing.” I don't see innocence here.

People who oppose Zionism are thinking from an ethical standpoint, that is: creating a homeland for Jewish people is not wrong at all, but what's wrong is displacing/destroying livelihood of others to fulfill that ambition. If Zionists decided to create a Jewish homeland in an empty vast land, nobody would have questioned it and no conflict would have arisen.

A precision strike to kill a doctor with her baby twins, why? https://x.com/Resist_05/status/1823846326842613985

Inflation and real estate price increase are a global thing not a Canada thing. Of course conservatives will use every bit of chance to fearmonger and blame immigrants and minorities to deflect from the real reason it's not a new thing. However, I do agree there needs to be an immediate action plan to build more affordable housing to ease the housing crisis and put the brakes a little bit on immigration not because it has negative impact but to mitigate the rise of conservative hate that is storming the globe.

https://x.com/PeruginiNic/status/1822870244869681294 Image of what has been bombarded by the Israeli military in Gaza since Oct (source UN Satellite Centre, updated Jul 6) Bombing spree, it's like a video game to them.

I think things like boycott and protest (green methods) can to some extent pressure orange establishments into becoming more evolved. Like what happened in South Africa.

I agree with you on this point when it comes to something like identity politics, but regarding what's happening in Gaza, the UN and the Green point of view represents the global consensus. It's only the US and Israeli gov that are resisting this green wave. Which is actually self-destructive to them. In this age of social media and easy spread of atrocities footage, their reputation has gone beyond repair. Unlike, historical conflicts that became more forgettable due to the absence of visual documentation.

If we can agree that what the US and Israel is doing is Blue/Orange devilry, don't you think greens should pressure orange (those in power) to develop towards green in order to evolve overall in the spiral dynamics, and later on when the collective and those in power are green enough then they can be pressured to evolve to yellow? Just like what the UN is currently trying to do? The required step for Orange to develop is to go Green first, not for yellow to give them a 'green' card to continue their atrocities, no?

Sorry that's again not a given. Most nations faced wars before and and were less developed yet still managed to progress. I think you are undermining the impact of economical development, for example people in Turkey, UAE, Qatar and the more privileged are starting to fall into Orange even according to your theoretical framework. Do they have their biases in terms like societal issues? of course like the west as well. And still back to you point, rest of middle eastern countries are living under puppet dictatorships and are no longer a threat to Israel like Egypt and Jordan so that workaround does actually work. I mean like if what all you care about is just protecting Israel.

I am talking about normal people, civilians. If you tried watching some videos of normal Gazans all they want is just to go back to normal life. They are not the cartoonishly evil red stage people as you portray.

If that US Puppet gov focused on development and enriching their new state, most people will NOT choose to recruit. It's simple psychology. Will there be some who do? yes sure but won't create an actual threat.

that is not a given. there are possible workarounds to prevent this scenario, actually the west has already been doing this for decades, planting puppet dictatorships in areas they want to control from afar. what's unique in this scenario is that israel does not just want control, they want the land itself as well.

@Leo Gura do you disagree with him? I think he is a realist and has no reason to have a bias in this one. I understand your point is that they might become an existential threat if they were given a state but that would be the case of any guerilla militia, their role is to resist the status quo, not to seek governance and ruling because they are not fit for it. Nobody said a Palestinian state must entail a Hamas state. I think your judgment is highly based on pragmatism which could be true yes but this what idealists and leftists aspire to change instead of normalizing it

They won't because the responsibility lies within those with supremacist ideologies of far right-nationalism including Nazis, ISIS or ultra Zionists. They just don't see other people as of equal worth and benefit from getting rid of whatever they see as "lower", let alone feel empathy and take an initiative to to stop it.

well said.

The truth of what? That Hamas is red and dangerous? We can agree on this. I think my point is getting rid of Hamas ( if it symbolizes red stage behavior) without getting rid of what CREATES it is the fundamental problem.

Their will has not been the same because one side has been oppressing the other. You just can't dismiss context out of the reaction I honestly do not think you have studied the older history and origins of Zionism that it is has always based on ethnic cleansing. expansionism and supremacy. Neither have you been following closely all the atrocities the IDF soldiers have been committing there on a daily basis, there have been Nazi level stuff happening and their congress was literally just debating if they are allowed to rape Palestinian detainees and the rapist just went mask-free pretending to be a hero! Sounds like a very developed society indeed. Who promotes systematic rape now? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-idf-palestinian-prisoner-alleged-rape-sde-teinman-abuse-protest/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240809-israel-systematically-uses-rape-sexual-assault-against-palestinian-detainees-rights-group-says/ Also Hamas being red is irrelevant because it was Israel that created the conditions for them to arise. Red stage happens due to lack of security and as result of being under constant threat of violence. What is more 'evil' than red, is what creates red.