ivarmaya

@Eph75 I don’t think that’s a mature way of communicating….not the insult itself, but the laziness of not supporting your point or specifying whom it’s directed at. The standards should be higher. @Leo Gura

I made these experiences pleasurable by removing/ignoring the negative stories I told myself about them. I first discovered this when I was getting into running…I used to be overweight and hated running because of the ideas and labels I attached to it. Once I let go of those, it sparked a curiosity that spread into other areas. Here are some examples; Muscle cramps, muscle soreness, headaches, tooth pain and extreme exhaustion (I have ran ultradistances in extreme condotions, such as in the desert in the middle east and in snow storm in Iceland). It’s also not just about manipulating the narrative around these experiences….it’s about what’s actually there when you drop the resistance. Once the resistance is gone, what’s left is often genuinely pleasurable. This doesn’t mean I ignore the signs my body is giving me, but it allows for a pleasurable experience rather than the opposite. This has also deepened with some of my recent awakenings. I’ve realized that, at its core, everything is absolutely beautiful/perfect….pure metaphysical love(hard to put it in words). I know it sounds insane but I can genuinely see even the most horrible things as beautiful or perfect. I’m fully aware this doesn’t fit into our reality/survival, I still have my biases and agendas, and I know certain actions have serious consequences. But it has undeniably shaped how I experience reality, it allowes alot more room for exploration.

@Malekakisioannis I understand you are suffering but try to ask yourself why your idea of the experience of pain is so biased to being ‘bad’? That’s the only unconscious fantasy I can see here. And regarding the headaches, it’s a known phenomenon within the kundalini domain to experience them and, through surrender, find pleasure in the experience. If you’re suffering from it, I suggest you look into it if you need proof outside of yourself. If you are suffering and this is too much for you to swallow, that’s okay, you don’t have to accept any of what I’m saying. I say all this with love and if you are suffering I feel for you, I would just rather show my compassion by potentially give you the opportunity to stop suffering.

Do not put words in my mouth. I did not say all pains can be surrendered neither is that my goal…here is what I said; ”I’m not saying you will completely overcome suffering, but you can eliminate it by 90%” This does not mean I’m saying you cannot surrender all pain, but I have not experienced that and therefore I’m not in a position to tell, are you? If not, I suggest you humble yourself and your assumptions.

I have actually already changed my relationship with headaches…I used to get migraines. You can change the pain into a sort of orgasmic feeling or high if you manage to stay curious and surrender to what you are experiencing.

Pain is a thought. Suffering is a thought. It’s a mental drama you’re playing out with yourself. Once you realise this it isn’t complicated; it’s obvious, it’s not hard, and it’s not only for the Buddha or Christ (that’s a fantasy). It’s like if you knew only one language…let’s call it “the bad language”….and then suddenly discovered another language, “the good language.” Every time you thought in the bad language, you would experience suffering. But once you’d learned the good language, it wouldn’t be hard to start thinking in it instead. It would take some effort, but you’d always know that whenever you were suffering, you were simply thinking in the bad language. And from there, you could choose not to do that. Meaning, realizing this doesn’t mean you’re suddenly free of all patterns….you’ll still have conditioned responses and habits to work through. But you’ll have the ability to start catching yourself in the act and making changes. Physical pain might seem different…more concrete. But I’ve managed to create enjoyable relationships with many experiences that would typically be labeled as “painful.” I’m not saying you will completely overcome suffering, but you can eliminate it by 90%, no need to manufacture what is already coming your way. But the reason you have such a hard time letting go of your addiction to suffering is that you are deeply identified with it, your whole world is constant problems and suffering. Some might argue that suffering is part of the Absolute truth. And of course that’s correct. And what? Just because all things are part of the Absolute doesn’t mean you’re compelled to act them out. Recognizing something as part of reality doesn’t mean you have to embody it. Killing people is part of the Absolute truth, that doesn’t mean you have to do that voluntarily. The reason for your suffering is way more likely to be your lack of awareness and incompetence, rather than you being some messiah. Be honest with yourself, do you really want to suffer?

Obviously.

Thats your bias.

The difference between religion and Truth is the same as being told what sex is and actually having sex. They have never had sex… Jesus had sex, Muhammad had sex, Gautama had sex, and the word got out…They had sex! They are the chosen ones! Only they can have sex! They tried to tell them, you can have too, they didnt believe it. So the world wrote the Bible, the Quran, the Gita…now they could imagine what it would be like to have sex…they had invented porn, their way of satisfying themselves. Eventually they mixed the fantasy with the real thing, they tricked themselves into beliving that porn is real, that it’s holy. But once in a while, someone comes along who has had real sex and tells them: “Porn is not real, but sex is real and you can have sex right now” They don’t want to. They are scared. They will have to admit their fantasy is not real. “He is a crazy man, only Jesus can have sex” they say, so they never have sex.

Spiral Dynamics is very useful when it comes to survival. I also look at it as a tool for navigating how to get my “foot in the door”, to connect with the individual or the magic that’s actually there. But the trap is using it as a hindrance….letting it define people and limit your experience of them. It shrinks people into groups and personalities, ignoring their actual magic. This not only leads to seeing people incorrectly but also behaving in ways that reinforce that image. It can obviously become an attachment, a way to create a sense of safety and structure, bypassing the deeper intelligence that exists beyond the framework. I dont know how @Leo Gura uses the model but saying things like ‘If people would stop acting it, I would stop using it,’ CAN be a sign of overlooking the fact that it’s easy to become selective in what you focus on. By loosening my attachment to these frameworks, I found a much richer and expansive view of reality.

Before you go chasing mystical experiences or following someone’s ideas, shouldn’t you first understand yourself? Without that, whatever you pursue is just another escape, another fantasy. If you don’t know the workings of your own mind, how can you know what’s true? You must begin with the fundamentals…with what is real, here and now. Otherwise, all these beliefs, all these teachings are merely projections of your own confusion. Start with understanding yourself and the nature of reality. Everything else will fall into place once you see clearly.

@puporing I think there’s a deeper understanding behind Osho’s approach to attachment, materialism, and society’s outcasts… While it might look like he had ‘attachments,’ Osho saw them more as something to play with rather than something to suppress. Unlike most spiritual teachers who unconsciously shame life’s pleasures or existence itself, Osho embraced these things intentionally… His contradictions weren’t signs of confusion… they were meant to wake people up, to stop them from relying on him, and to push them towards self-reliance. Materialism wasn’t ‘lower’ or ‘worse’ in Osho’s eyes… He understood that materialism and spirituality aren’t separate… both are part of the same game. Poverty and survival, on the other hand, can be barriers to spiritual growth because they keep people trapped in attachments. But Osho wasn’t moralizing about what’s right or wrong… He understood that real morality doesn’t come from beliefs… it comes from truth. Most people act based on what they think is ‘right,’ but love is actually far more radical than that, and Osho knew this. That’s why he’d say things like, ‘Be who you are, even if the whole world is against you.’ He didn’t reject anything because, at the deepest level, he saw everything as love. He also didn’t focus on helping the poor and the ‘good’ because they already had representatives or were seen as worthy… Osho intentionally worked with the rich and those demonized by society… the ones rejected and dismissed… because they were neglected by the rest of the spiritual world. He saw materialism as a way to burn through desires… Osho understood the foolishness of mankind… that most people need to exhaust their desires before they can even begin to seek the truth in a genuine way. For him, materialism wasn’t something to be avoided or rejected… it was a tool. When we look at reality from the angle of ‘attachment vs. non-attachment,’ we’re still creating a conceptual framework… a construct to make sense of life. But life is much more mysterious than that… Those who are afraid to embrace its fullness use attachment to ground their reality… to create some sense of control. But Osho understood that playing with these constructs… rather than shaming or avoiding them… was the key to real freedom.

Osho was a pretty unconventional teacher…he didn’t bother with the savior complex, embraced materialism, and had a playful, non-serious approach to life. He seemed to have pretty good understanding of reality(better than most appreciate) , yet he didn’t reject the world/life. Instead, he indulged in it. He embraced luxury, enjoyed life’s pleasures, and even seemed to accept not only his own attachments but also those of others. It’s like he was saying, “Yeah, we have attachments, but that’s just part of the game.” That’s what sets him apart…he didn’t preach renunciation; he embraced and played with life’s contradictions. Osho also didn’t hesitate to call out other spiritual leaders like Gandhi, Jesus, Buddha, and Krishnamurti for falling into dogma or missing deeper truths. Here are some questions; - What’s your take on Osho and his teachings? - Which aspects of his approach resonate with you the most, and why? - In your view, what were his biggest personal limitations or shortcomings, as a teacher and/or in terms of his spiritual growth? Also, if you have a favorite Osho quote or story, I’d love to hear it. You can answer all, any, or none of these…whatever you feel like. Cheers, Ívar

Every awakening we have is just another layer of existence we realize but not the “whole” truth. We fall into the trap of attachment by putting our most recent awakening at the 'top,' disregarding everything else in an attempt to find ground for reality. All of it is true, but none of what we perceive to be all of it is all of it; there is always more. “Existence cannot be reduced to a logical formula. It is beyond logic, it is beyond mind. It is a mystery to be lived, not a problem to be solved" -Osho Discuss / tell me how Im wrong.