ryoko

I've always felt this in the back of my mind that Spiral Dynamics is deeply flawed. I feel, this is a model with deep stage Orange bias, it feeds the lower stages' cravings, which is a feature not a bug, but at the cost of truth/accuracy. Also when I see people on this forum demonize stages red or green or orange, it begs the question, is this a structural problem. To a huge extent, it is. When we associate one stage as higher than other it comes with all the perversions which arise with it. I've fallen into it, I see everyone else doing it at some point. In a sense, I feel Spiral Dynamics makes it difficult to see people as they are. We have this tendency to put a label on everyone. At best, Spiral Dynamics is a genius system which helps us rise to yellow, beyond that it's really nothing. It's at best useful for personal development. I don't think we should use SD as a base for working with people. My greatest insight on SD have been: don't use SD as an excuse to demonize or label people, and don't overlook the qualities of each stage. Enter Integral Theory by Ken Wilber. He's brought in more depth to SD. But here again, the same problem arises. The design of these models are inherently perfectionist. Also, the model itself has the goal of categorizing people, this one have more of that tendency. This is not recommended, it will cause a lot of cognitive dissonance. People are infinitely complex. This theory makes everything idealistic.. And if you take these theories seriously you'll find it extremely difficult to work with Tier one stages, and even keep you blind about true Tier 2 stages. Critiques are welcome. I won't be defending or fighting SD, the purpose of this post was to bring back humility and encourage observation without judgements. P.S - instead of just saying one thing is bad, let's introduce some more humane ways of sense making - Cynefin is one such way - it belongs to the domain of Complexity Thinking, and not Systems Thinking. You can explore that one from Dave Snowden Here are some critiques against Spiral Dynamics, he talks about it briefly. Highly recommended.

Language has its limits.

@Elliott The problem is structural. The structure of SD is very bad. It's evident by how certain traits are put on a pedestal while viewing some as primitive. This is one of those models which makes you look for evidences which supports your assumption.

Yes, and no. There's a lot of demonization going on towards Trump, Andrew Tate, and telling them, "hey, you need to move up the spiral and integrate" is not gonna help them. Also this lens of seeing things is only ever gonna help people who are willing to learn, and is well off. In other words, there are many hidden coefficients which needs to be in place. Also the complexity and chaos of humans are not something we can account for, by using SD.

9 stages of ego development have this Western bias more strongly.

Ask CHATGPT for it's chain-of-thought, it'll deny you outright. This is where deepseek shines. Best way to use deepseek is locally, using ollama and open-webUI. You need a GPU, for faster responses, it's not worth it to run on CPU. Also, deepseek have less flexibility compared to ChatGPT, in the sense that ChatGPT can quickly change topics, but deepseek can't. It is good in some sense, but not always. It's actually an accurate name, deep-seek. The model can easily hit the depth, but have trouble jumping around into different topics.

This recommendation came up after filtering the prompt many times. This is supposed to be a Tier 2 movie, but in an unconventional, non textbook style.

While noticing the dynamics of many families, and how seemingly consumed they are in this made up purpose, some cultures much more than the other. I often feel bad for them. It's not that having children is bad, it's how most people use the family to fill a void which cannot be filled. And how it feeds into the "what everybody else is doing around us" or survival. You worrying about your little children's survival is secondary, you having children was part of your survival; survival of what you think you are, this is what gives meaning. Children have given you an occupation; to take care of them. In other words, you're indebted to them. About the loneliness aspect. A teacher once asked why do you think people have children, the students had many answers, then the teacher went on to say, couples get bored of seeing each other's face very soon. New face is new task, in this game.

These are simply language games, not interpretation, notice each word have a certain meaning , a certain "way you're supposed to feel" attached to it. This can corrupt the interpretation, but here, it's used deliberately to point to a folly. For example, good and bad, there's no inherent meaning to these on this context, but humans are gullible enough to assume meaning. Same with the word selfish, easy to assume the quote is about a person or yourself, while forgetting the collective self: God, which is everything, and all creation and destruction holds no inherent meaning.

Not really. Re read it. You have not let a single bad thing happen in the universe because you're that selfish, you love it so much. So, there's no bad thing happening in the world? I'd say this question does not belong in this context. The context of the quote is different.

This question is like, is solipsism True in the sense that only the observer is True, or is the observed also True? The mistake we often make in solipsism is over simplification and assumptions. It's fine to not know stuff. And best to admit it. My little experience says, the observer and the observed is one. Are we imagining the self too? Just like we imagined the world around us? So, is everyone just a figment of imagination, including oneself? If we follow down this path, we come to a point where self is imagined, so, that makes the outside world just as real as the self, or you could say only as real as the self. Imagination of your "self" and the world is not a negative thing here, this is a tool for realizing the oneness. So yeah, this solves the mystery why many get suicidal after learning about solipsism. They just believe something someone said about it and mistake it like, ah the whole world is false, I'm in a simulation, I have to escape, I'm trapped, death is the only way out, and loads of bullshit like this.

It's not Trump's fault. It doesn't matter what amusing circus is being done on a weak foundation. A collapse is inevitable. And it's the people who end up suffering, just because they're born in a certain era, in a certain region. Collective Karma; Collective Action.

"we"

What good does it do even if it's actually true? Does that make immigrants evil?

Consequences of generational racism. Just few hundred years ago, these nations have meddled with so many millions of life in inhumane ways. No, it's not nations, it's people fighting against people, until both got tired and decided to settle it with compromises on the losing side. We were dumb, much dumber than we are now. There's no point in taking sides. If one commits a crime, it's because his environment failed him, it's not because of his race, even if it's a race, it's a structural problem, not a DNA problem.

yes, to the extend of how much fantasy one have to inherit for their survival.

What do you think changed humans from what they were 2000 years ago? It's this very same effort you see here. The effort to do better.

What do you expect when the game is rigged?

It's one of the phases, yes. Don't get too attached to one or the other. If you people think you must shoot, then shoot you must. Just asking, do you seriously see no consequence to it? That's the exact problem, if enough people's worldview changes, "it's a really inefficient way to live like this on earth, I have to do my part and at least see things for what they are. And not have my worldviews built out of fantasies.", there won't be anyone left to do this dirty work, and we won't even need to do this. This is not a matter of spiritual "hobby" thinking; your whole life has to reflect it. And don't worry, most won't go through this trouble, current systems will make sure they have no energy left for independent thought, and much less adopt a worldview which will make living harder.

"I am to lazy to think by myself, and what do you expect, I'd read these long para to upgrade my sense making? I'm happy where I am, being what I am"

You should be joking. A country is the very definition of division. You don't see that?

To Krishna all humans are one and equal. Killing a fly is no different from killing any human. Is that how you live? And don't invent false contexts. Why are the refugees coming over? Their home is in a bad state, what has caused it? Because humans aren't united yet. Don't throw blame game, and blaming countries, governments... These systems are inefficient by design. What else do you expect when we built and stayed with these systems?For one, the then existing systems as a whole couldn't tolerate anything better. Times are changing. Each and every one of us is responsible.

No

How hard is to to see things as they are? Don't make excuses to corrode your vision.

How hard is it for you to accept this is a structural problem? Complacency, and acceptance of countries as norm. Countries, borders, military, govt.. all are just one phase. The things we do to ignore what's right infront of us.