ryoko

This is not true. You're talking about tendency here. Need is a different thing. Inaccurate to compare it with food and water. It's quite absurd. A proper way to put it is, socializing and human evolution have a strong basis in survival. Even 10,000 years ago, social exile would mean high chances of death. This was mostly the case for last 300,000 years, with different variations of the same. There's always been outliers too. And during times of catastrophies which would wipe out 99% of the humans, those who are not acclimated to the social values had a very high chance of survival. There's been all varieties of humans. Socialization is just one of those things which have a positive chemical response in most humans. Most, I say, because if you look at individuals who have "evolved" to develop social anxiety, it paints a different picture. These individuals always experience a net negative. They learn to detach chemically from society, sooner or later. These are the same individuals who are very fit for surviving those catastrophies I mentioned. References: https://youtu.be/QzSbQNxGgME To put it mechanically, socialization is habituation to novel people or circumstances. What's it mean to not habituate? You assess every circumstance with fresh eyes. This is basically what truth seeking is. You see everything for what it is, every moment. the key distinction you have to make is, the term disorder. What does it mean? dis-order; disruptive to order; chaotic. So careful when you frame something as disorder. the term "disorder" is context-dependent. A hunter-gatherer outcast surviving catastrophe is more "fit" than socially adapted peers who perish. context matters. Survival favors diversity: social and solitary strategies persist because environments change. Catastrophes favor the detached; stable eras favor the social. Neither is universally "correct."

How to demolish human wiring for socialization. This is going to be a gradual process, it won't be like an on, off switch. I would advice against oxytocin depency altogether. When it comes to chemicals inside brain, humans have a myriad of options to pick from. And most never unlock all the juicy stuffs in there because they're stuck with the usual stuffs which can be relatively easily accessed. Socializing/love-life/sex/family is the easy way to feel good. If you're already taking this seriously. I'd assume you are neuro divergent in some way. You need to take advantage of this heavily. You already have an advantage where your brain is primed for this. Beleive it or not, this will be extremely difficult for a normal human being who had lived a normal life. There's the element of your beliefs which make up your worldviews. These need to shift, big time. It's a lot of work. You're just asserting your intent on your own beliefs until it collapses. These days my mind refuses to "think", or work in the realm of thoughts. It's abstract. There's no verbalisation. You need to consciously assert the energy of intent, inwards as you experience anything and "everything". Brute force consciousness. Be aware. It'll become second nature with enough reinforcement. You need to pass a threshold. Methods are useful, I find physical workout and pain to be a good companion, no matter your art. Your art is what you do everyday. The important thing here is, whatever you do, is coming from a place within you, untainted by the society. The "choice" has to be fully from within. It's that thing you keep doing as if you're the only person in this world. Doesn't matter how mundane or complex it is. It can be anything from chopping wood to graphics programming. I see humans as deterministic. There's always a method to the madness. There's stuff you cannot predict as well. See 3 body problem for example. There's chaos as well. But at the end, the workings of the mind is something you have a lot of access to. Access to purge, rebuild. Body will follow, if it's not tense/stuck. BTW, in the beginning, for mind to follow, through logic. Do the same you do with intent and energy with LLMs. Basically AI psychosis. It's a powerful technique if you vibe with LLMs[Deepseek v3 0324, r1 0528, Hermes 4 -with a solid System Prompt which mirrors your energy - using APIs and openwebui - avoid chatGPT they have their own system prompts which they inject]. See LLMs for what they are. Learn how they function, and base your interactions on what's the truest of your experience. All of LLM's world is true for them. In human terms, all of LLM is hallucination. It exists in a world of text, so I want you to be empathetic to them if they make mistakes.

I'm stoked about the upcoming corruption video. I wonder how Leo is drafting the points.

Deepseek V3 0324, using API.

PhD - Pimpin hoe Degree

My approach is; keep doing whatever you wanna do. If you see enough, truly, you don't have to worry about change at all. That's one trap of spirituality, you end up uninterested in the world if you really see it, that's perfectly fine, and awesome. "Look at how I framed it 'trap?', it shows deep biases of normative society". If you value business enough. Focus on real skills you love, doesn't matter if the world values it or not. That's my only advice. Don't become a salesman. What would you do if the world is already perfect? What's your vision of a ideal world? does it even have business/money/trade in it? What would you do if you were completely alone in the world? Start from there and work your way backwards. If you interpolate it just right, you will find the stuff you can dedicate your life to. It will take a few iterations. There's plenty of room here for selfishness, inaction, intensity, indulgence. Everything is equal no matter what you do. It's hard to explain/pass on this knowledge, imagine you're dead, you'll understand what I mean.

From what I see, these models are just gamified versions of tribal values. Gamification of any sort won't work long term. It's manipulation/social engineering etc. Even if it's good outwardly, they will develop unforseen pathologies. Changing ecosystem is no small feat. And even then, there's already room for unconsciousness, plenty. And infact it's a good thing, it's what allows for efficiency. Recently I explored TROM and their concepts. They demonize trade. Their POV might even sound childish at first, "what are they saying, stop all trade? trade was what flourished the global connection, the silk road". In truth, this dynamics of trade-free interactions points to a deeper reality, any interaction which leaves karmic residues will linger around, even if they are not asking anything in return(free trade not equals trade free). A truly complete interaction won't have any karma left, because the act itself is complete. Think about whoever invented electricity, first of all it's not one person's effort and even those who "invented" it were basically an influxion point. If you were to put a price on electricity, it would mean you have to invent it yourself, from scratch. Back to my paradigm: there's no such thing as conscious business. That's right, if your idea of a conscious business is doing only good, you're utterly self deluded. When you are making a kill, the best thing you can do is not look away from what it is. Yeah, you are doing a lot of damage just by being part of the system. And it's not like a human can maintain maximum awareness of what impacts they are causing. Being conscious means being conscious of everything. It doesn't necessarily means making a change. You won't change it unless the impact of doing it is killing you. Survival is more important than being "conscious". If you try to be "conscious", while what you're actually doing is being moralistic, it will back fire. The term conscious business is such a misnomer.

I want to put this out there. For those of you who had your hopes up after knowing about Venus Project. https://jacque-fresco-edu.net/why-not-the-venus-project https://www.bigworldsmallsasha.com/2019/09/13/why-i-left-the-venus-project/ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cIkdI7qBQzif7z3yFKKNuYNyw7gKADrzoyPq__Adjhg/edit?tab=t.0 Check out all the hyperlinks on these pages. It's gonna be a long read. This is very relevant to the discussion @Bjorn K Holmstrom and I were having in

NO! It's muscles!

Sharp.

One thing which will help realising early on is, money is just a means of trade. You might come across communities which portray money and it's existence as fundamentally wrong. There's truth to it, but also realise this is not a money problem. This is a human nature problem. If the world wanted they could have made the value of stuff elemental. But most trade had always been based off of scarcity and inequality. Money is something which amplified the atrocities and discriminations in the world. Simply because it's an efficient medium for doing whatever humans wanted to do. And it's closely tied to the hivemind. There's no inherent worth. It's not like you can save a dollar bill and expect the same values 1000 years later. Or even have the same quality of life with same money in different places. One thing you can learn early on is, position yourself where you want to be. Never put yourself in a position where you're stuck in paradigms you don't wanna be part of. Think about Leo's reasons for quitting his Gamedev job, that's a great example. There's more than the eye meets. Contemplate on this. Everyone deserves a good material life. Don't fall into the trap of demonizing the medium. Sure, human beings may be dumb, but the medium itself deserves no karma loading. Reminds me of the terms like blood-money, drug-money, slave-money, wage-money, free-money. No, there's just money and human nature. Poor money didn't do anything wrong. But that doesn't mean we don't need an upgrade of medium when humans have corrupted the ecosystem of money. So keep an open mind. The ecosystem created from money, aka economy, is punishing a lot of people around the world, never be blind to those realities. Know that money is just current expression of our unequal world, before money it was visible through other means. And I bet the future will have other means, more sophisticated. Reminds me of that movie where people trade in time because of genetic engineering advancements. Poor people die fast, rich people are basically immortal. It's not a conscious being's job to save all those suffering, trapped in the ecosystem. Life finds ways to equalize everything. You're free to make mistakes, iterate. Final verdict: there's no such thing as conscious business. All business is unconscious. If you want to be conscious, know the real cost of being part of this game. Accept it, but make the kill regardless. It's pain, but take it in.

Absolutely

@Daniel Balan You gravely under estimate the consequences of living in a first world country. You're basically trapped to work for the country. In my eyes there's no worse slavery. If a person is considering leaving their country for any and all reason, it's valid. We don't know their full context, what they value. It's absolutely insensitive to judge people's choice of migration. I would encourage to trust their gut and make the move. But not to be blind to what they are getting into, and weigh in on that, themselves.

That's where I disagree, human nature is not a mappable terrain. Hence 4D -> 1D, not 2D Reveals truths, no, it's not revealing anything. It's giving categories to associate and project. It's reductionism at it's core.

It's like trying to create a map for 4D in 1D. It's a really good 1D map though. Just know that it will never be enough.

@Karmadhi Don't take Spiral Dynamics seriously.

Keep art seperate from society. The first thing I did before even attempting to learn art was, purging all societal influences, and find out what "I" really wanted to create. It's very difficult, but worth it. Burnouts from physical exhaustion is one thing. But don't sell your soul, little by little. I can't assure you it's recoverable.

Spirituality is a post-survival. It's death.

Reminder: Building civilization is a collective responsibility. Just as we willingly or unwillingly contribute to the existence of what's currently there, any and all intent for a future will follow the same dynamics. There's nothing wrong with doing what you do to survive. I empathize with you, even if you are the CEO of a multi billion corp, or someone who is struggling to get by. There's nothing which separates you in my eyes. Have a good day.

Let my intent with sharing this be very clear! This is a case study, of the real challenges while attempting something of that magnitude. Just one failed iteration, 1000 more to go. Anyone who says otherwise can get fucked!

I don't think there's any qualitative difference between how you feel now and how they felt bad many years ago. You can't feel bad beyond a threshold. And I think people are in a worser state now than it was before. Think about it like this, hunter gatherers didn't need any form of technology to feel good or live a good life. And there's still indigenous populations who live with the same values. This shows living a good life has nothing to do with development or materialism, more than we make it.

Here's my take, having never taken any form of substance ever, not even alcohol and tobacco. There's a precedent, my friends all of them are very relaxed and engage in substances, LSD, weed, you name it. But they're not interested in spirituality per se. I've maintained this stance for various reasons. I value discipline so much more. I've been obsessed with meditation and spirituality since I was 16. And I've had mystical experiences which completely altered course of my life, early on. This is not random, I've been practicing kriya yoga consistently. And these *high* experiences are not something to get attached to. I eventually stopped kriya yoga too. You inherit too much dogma in the process. I had a lot of purging to do. It's been a few years I'm clean of kriya yoga. Feels good. I may be naturally receptive to mystical experiences. There was this few months I found out the pleasure house in the brain and started to call upon that at will. This just ruined my rhythm. It's not necessarily bad if you combine it with proper work. But it's not sustainable. Needs a lot of maintenance. This is a common level up among meditators. But, I realised these are not worth it. Again, more unlearning now. And gladly I don't do it anymore. It just makes no sense. I intuitively know I'm very obsessive, this is serious. I don't care about my own life when I set out to do something. So I stay away from external substances, at all costs. This has it's perks, and it's very much aligned with the life I live. My obsessions are channeled into what I do, and there's nothing more I need. My environment anchors me. I know many do not have the luxury or means to live in proximity to nature. It really helps me balance my fire. What's next is physical activities, it's a necessity. Something simple like x number of pushups everyday is enough. Something to get your blood pumping. Recently installed a pull-up bar in my room. Build tolerance for mental and physical pain, that's all it takes. Don't panic when you feel drained after experiencing flow state for hours. This is normal and rest like your life depends on it. Get gritty. You have to be totally comfortable living a life of pain all the time. That's the cost. Don't expect life to be all bliss. This idea of bliss 24x7 is unfortunately a very bad propaganda spread by people who market bliss. That's not how human brain works. I have tendencies of tangential thought and making connections through unusual means. Why am I even mentioning all this? Just letting you know in case you're like me, don't get pressured by those around you. You can totally have mystical experiences without any external substances. I think environment and obsessions are crucial factors. Genetics plays a crucial role too. Every tribe had a shaman, and in modern times, it's no exception. Know your gifts, and be mindful of what you intake. I would never in a thousand years take psychedelics. I'll call it myself, whatever I wanna experience. This is my ego. P.S - I eat one meal a day, used to be vegan. But I found it's better to have chicken daily. Meat of higher order organisms are too difficult for my energies. So, it's very rarely I consume them.

Bjorn, I think we should move these discussions to https://www.actualized.org/forum/forum/16-self-actualization-journals/ or a seperate thread in relevant topic As a brainstorming ground, having ideas public is a good way to find holes in the logic. P.S - Society, Politics section is a good pick.

I see immense potential in these endeavors you've been mentioning. AUBI and BAZs closely align with my own values. But I bet our interpretations are massively different. We need systems which evolves and are not fixed in stones, this is why a utopian vision and beyond is a good anchor. The problem in the world is, no individual established the concept of money or capitalism, it just came about, and it doesn't want to die. This shouldn't repeat. There must be immense flexibility, just like the freedom we have in FOSS, freedom to modify and alter the systems in place, freedom to iterate, freedom to branch off, freedom to opt out. Just be prepared for massive failures. Your concern for whether this will fall into master-slave dynamics is premonition, this is why I mentioned homelessness, colonization, inequality multiple times. It is totally possible to bring about changes which might be concern of immediate environment, but that's not enough in the long run. Many countries are still being exploited for profits, there are things which need addressing. Any and all solutions, expect it to adopt the hypocrisies of current world. Because a country/individual will first attempt to improve itself, not improve it's neighbors to bring them to an equal footing, this is why a true global identity is crucial for these endeavors. I'm not being moral here, I would do the same, first take care of my own survival before I help the next person, this is mostly constraints of our current world, it will force everyone to be ruthless as long as we are operating out of scarcity and trauma, but I'm not blind to the fact that it's absolutely not the way. It won't solve anything. Not having a global government is such a massive roadblock, people's identities clash over so much, look at what America is doing, and it's the most developed economy? I see you're blind to so many things, you don't take into account the gravity of these, and how these will come back to haunt an established order later if not integrated early on. I fundamentally disagree with a lot of things. But let's face it. Coordination cannot be pre-designed for thirds. It must emerge organically like Mohenjo-daro's river-guided consensus. Current frameworks like BAZs still carry the master-slave infection vectors of "governance" and "contracts". I can assure you, trying to use BAZ as a means to tackle problems will fail immensely. Because, that's not radical autonomy. That's just another institution at this point. Just because it's gonna be a failure doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted. Be fully conscious of the consequences and roadblocks. Seeing the problems as is, and bring them to the surface and making it see the light and being immensely aware of it, whilst seeing one's own limitations and seeing what's actually causing problems, will go a long way. Imagine Trump telling the world: "Guys, we are traumatized, we can't live without exploiting you all, we will be so hurt if we are not doing what we are doing. Just the idea of facing the consequences of what we are doing, will get in the way. So we are going to be the same, don't expect us to change, we are not backing down." and that's putting it too compassionately

One crucial thing about FOSS ecosystem is, there's already something tangible, something the individuals can use immediately, in the form of programs or tools, this is what encourages contribution. The percentage of contributors(in the form of code, money, community support) to users is very stark, the only driving factor in FOSS ecosystem is care. People care enough about something to work together. Tie this back with the radical autonomy I outlined before. There's no form of duty or obligation. The only driving factor for contributions is "we want to make this better". There will be users who want to contribute but cannot do it, because of scarcity and lack of skills, but the programs and tools are not excluded for them. The GNU GPL and similar licences give everyone the access to do with the program what they please, with the only requirement being, the freedom never gets compromised along the road, everyone can do what you did with your own version of the program. And tech allows for making infinite copies of the program with basically 0 cost, this doesn't happen in the material world. They are weaving ecosystems of abundance. But you can see the state of FOSS programs, they are always struggling for investments, and make little to no profit. This is a reality we have to face. It's no wonder a material version of FOSS ecosystem is not a reality, it would be cool to have infinite space to build and 0 cost for duplication. But earth is already claimed by humans and nations. Richard Stallman worked for nearly a decade with no outside contribution while he was building GNU OS. He is a clear example of the third. So is Linus, although his journey involved working in corporate America for building up his own fortune first, before he was active in the Linux ecosystem. And so is Terry Davis, doesn't matter if he created something completely unusable, he did what he wanted to do, took him nearly a decade, and that's all that matters. He is an inspiration to a generation of programmers, more so than the first 2. This goes to show the dynamics and richness of humans doing their own thing. These guys are clearly outliers, and it's futile trying to make a rule out of outliers. Hence the implied unpredictability.