TheCloud

A truth which silence defends as well as words. So, in the interest of duality, I have to say I'm curious as to what makes you say so much about so little (non-duality being a matter for which significance is not possible)? Because you have to admit, you've had a lot to say.

@Someone here Does one who obtains happiness directly then stop eating, drinking, smoking, gambling, etc.? Or, are they satisfied by anything, regardless of quality or content?

@Princess Arabia To me, it sounds as if you've had an epiphany. If so, and if you don't mind saying, what specifically happened? Also, does it and how does it relate to unconditional love?

If you haven't already, be fully honest, at least with your private self, on how deleterious your mother's behaviors have been/are to you. It takes two dysfunctional parents to make a dysfunctional household. Be honest with how harmful your father's behavior was, and how harmful your mother's was in accepting or allowing it. Imagine you had a child, and your parents were putting that child through what you went through. That's how upset you need to be. Then acknowledge and work through those emotions, which are your real feelings on the matter.

Look at reality, and accept it. You went into the forest with a gun, intent on ending your life, and you came back alive. You had the chance to die, and you lived. That's not weakness. It's not because you were too cowardly to go through with it. That happened because you want to live. That is reality. You say that your connections all fall apart, but here you are building connections. You're trying to live, and not just survive, but truly get something out of life. From what I understand, you know you've been messed up a lot by the cult and your parents, and the truth is, you might be the only person who is fully there for you right now. Healthy people form healthy relationships with other healthy people. They don't look for messed up people unless it's their job or calling, and even then they might draw a line, because messed up people don't know how to maintain healthy boundaries, and because while it's easy to get dragged down, it's really hard to drag someone up. But you're still alive, and you know you chose that. Your parents or the cult, or whatever voices you've internalized in response to them, might call you weak and cowardly and foolish. It's the voices of troublemakers, people telling you that you are here in your very own body and mind on sufferance, and you only might just barely be good enough if you get whipped into shape. But you better watch out, because everything you have, you've been given by an unscrupulous lender who doesn't have set interest rates, but rather demands anything and everything you have to give while asserting that it's not enough and never will be, because you're no good right now and better work hard if you ever want to be any good. The reality is, though, that you are fully welcome to your body and mind, for free, forever. Which isn't to say it won't break down or fail at some point, but until it does, it's gratefully yours. Any voice that tells you different is a troublemaker trying to stir something up. It's a matter of perspective where you can freely choose; parasite, or guest; unfinished, or whole; intruder, or inner circle. Truth is, no matter how hard you work, no matter how great your achievements, no matter how much you surpass your origins, you will never love yourself until you choose to love yourself, and when you make that choice, it will have nothing to do with your work or achievements or what you've surpassed. It will be without condition or possibility of condition. People who don't belong are troublemakers; people who do belong are peace-makers. If you say to yourself, "I'm good," the voice that tells you why you're not is a troublemaker. It is not your friend, and it is not your salvation. No matter how smart it is, no matter how right it is, it's a troublemaker. It's not evil, it doesn't need to be killed, it just needs to be sent to the corner with a dunce cap. Anything it says that's smart or right may need to be acknowledged, but it still needs to go to the corner afterward. Even the you right now can practice this. You don't need to have or know anything else in order to love yourself, other than that it's a choice. Anyone who tells you it's a stupid choice is a troublemaker.

The fact that things are so awful is exactly why you need NVC or something like it. Do you understand your own feelings? Do you know how to establish and enforce reasonable boundaries? Do you know what you like, or what you want? Do you know how to interact with normal people? Growing up in an abusive environment, there's a lot you have that you don't want, and a lot you need that you don't have. Right now, your thoughts are so violent and intense that they're damaging your health. You need a healthy channel for your emotions, but you can't do that without tools. You're not in the cult anymore, so you need to learn some tools for understanding, channeling, and communicating your emotions. Did you know that you can apply NVC, or any other kind of communication tool, to yourself? It's pretty simple. You already interact with various people in your imagination. Just imagine that there's another you, who represents whatever issue it is you currently want to address, then communicate with them according to the tools you're using. 1- Hey, meta-male, what kind of problem are you having? 2- Man, my parents are just the worst. Like, literally. They're awful. 1- That sounds pretty bad. So what are you doing now? 2- Well, I tried to get away from them, but I'm so messed up from their cult that I don't know how to live a good life. I wish they would just die. 1- I take it that you're feeling upset. 2- That's an understatement. I'm furious, and wish for intense harm on those who I despise. 1- So what do you need to address your upset feelings? 2- If I can't kill anyone, I have no idea. 1- Then lets try to come up with some answers. There must be some action, or series of actions, that can resolve this. This is an example of the kind of conversation you can have all by yourself. If continued, eventually 1 and 2 would work together to find out what needs are attached to your emotions. If you're not getting anywhere in dealing with other people, then the best method is one where you just deal with yourself. Then no one gets hurt, and you don't have to be afraid.

I don't want to be all downer. From what you say, it sounds as if you're open and conscientious with her, and she with you. If you stay open to objections, and she isn't objecting, then that's a good thing. The reasons this kind of age-difference relationship is frowned upon may not apply to your situation. Any relationship has an inherent risk of both parties getting hurt. It's not guaranteed that she won't get more hurt if you reject her, especially if you flush a mutual thing for the sake of something like your reputation. I don't have any realistic knowledge of what it takes to make your situation work, or when to call it off. I'm just saying all I can think of. I hope it all works out for both your bests.

Then I'd say the thing to do now if you haven't made up your mind, might be to have her weigh in on this thread. It's impossible to favorably resolve all the questions in our minds just hearing your side, no matter how pure and forthright you are. The issues with your relationship going forward right now seem to be, for one, circumstantial; she's 17, and been in increasingly intimate contact with you since 15. Also, you do have to be aware that you likely have confidence issues, and so a 17yo might be subconsciously easier for you than a mature woman. This isn't necessarily fatal, but you might need to keep in mind that a reason you're doing this is because it's easy and you're sad. Any of these could be reasons for you to quit, or they might just be things for you to work through. Edit: There are reasons that relationships between minors and adults are poorly regarded. Keep in mind that going through with this means having the determination to go against those reasons.

That might be it, or it might just be the top layer. Something I've come to believe is that for humans who have their basic material needs met, the greatest negative emotional influence is loneliness. If we're not starving or freezing, the thing we want most is to connect. For many, this unacceptable. We don't want to believe that we are beholden to our fellow humans. We want to be secure and singular. But in reality, loneliness is at the bottom of our hearts, and we've despaired of ever satisfying our human connections. Are better opportunities valuable? Sure. I would venture, though, that despair and/or loneliness are far more basic and potent drivers of your current situation. Seeking money and success are easy surrogates in a society that tends to favor a superficial view of human relationships. Going deep means going past that.

I can't help you with hacking your finances, but if you want to go deeper into consciousness, I would suggest learning about emotions. It's a common blind spot, and it's usually where the real problems are when it comes to procrastination and nihilism and the like. Relationships also tie right into that emotion thing. They aren't a backburner thing you can figure you "when you get rich." Your knowledge or ignorance in emotional and relational matters is affecting you big time, right now.

I've been friends with a girl for well over a decade who contacted me online when she was mid-teens and I was somewhere in my mid-twenties. We never had anything sexual happen, though it has come up. So I can say from experience that age-different relationships do have long-term potential. I can also say from (other) experiences that sex can change everything. Maybe ask her straight out of she thinks you're creeping on her. Be honest with her and yourself about where you imagine things going, what her parents might think, what your friends might think. Maybe before crossing the line physically, talk in-depth about what a life together might be like, including the very real challenges. Or maybe she just wants to bang an older dude. Maybe you're the one who'd end up being used. You won't know it until you talk about it. While you can't totally ignore a potential impact on your livelihood and reputation, her intentions, situation, and state of mind are a lot more important. There is no "safe" thing to do with a minor, though. Even if it's legal.

Emotional work is hard. It seems as if it would be easier to kill or die, than to be honest with someone who hurt you. Communicating your suffering is an essential skill and allowance, that you were largely denied. I'm guessing that expressing your suffering either fell on deaf ears, or resulted in punishment, or was misinterpreted in a twisted way. There was no one to look you straight in the eye and simply accept that you were hurt and what was hurting you. Letting that suffering out in a constructive way is an essential part of communication, and you need to be able to do it with anyone who is in your inner circle of relationships. Most people are mediocre at it even if they have lived normally. Since the methods of communication you grew up with are obviously dubious, one resource that might help you is Non-Violent Communication (NVC). It's a structured protocol for how to communicate your feelings and needs. There are plenty of books and Youtube videos and such if you care to look into it. You would be surprised at how often you don't really know what emotion you're feeling. You'll think you're angry, but you're actually hurt. You'll think your frustrated, but you're actually jealous. Communication starts with knowing what's inside. Then you need to resolve yourself to get it out. Then the hardest part might be, having said your piece, believing you have been or will be heard. https://www.cnvc.org/about/purpose-of-nvc https://davidya.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/feelings-needs-inventories1.pdf

Your story is, essentially, one of a person experiencing psychosis ending up in a psychiatric ward. Without mitigating details, that could very easily be mistaken for a good idea. The story is very one-sided in its telling.

I'm thinking more that my voice is my value and means of survival. It's what I need, and it's not something trivial or secondary. I'm someone who lives best by communicating. I'm not centrally suited for craftsmanship, leadership, care-taking, adventure or risk-taking. I'm suited for communicating, but my voice has become suppressed. I spent too long without any outlet, and now I'm middle-aged yet lacking skills in my central competency. Thinking about it, I've concluded that one central necessity for communication in any healthy relationship is the conveyance of suffering. It's a fundamental necessity, and it's something I often don't do, and can't do with grace. I have a friend who's a writer, the emotionally-honest and literary-minded sort. I've been recently learning from him that writing, and communication in general, is believing that my message is or will be part of a meaningful relationship and exchange. Over time, I've become dishonest. Not just in the sense of speaking untruths, but being generally disengaged, speaking only as a means of deflecting conversation away from myself, precluding the possibility of my even needing to be honest. And in that dark space that I create, I become someone who matches the darkness and who would be ugly if shed light upon, creating a vicious cycle of ugliness and darkness. It seems pretty obvious to me how I became this way. The frightening thing is; what will I say if I'm honest? I can't know that ahead of time, just as life can't be lived ahead of time. Most communication is spontaneous, and it's fairly useless to expect a truly predictable result. Part of the point is to cast aside rigid forms, and become a product of the moment. After all, I may not even live to see any prediction I make, accurate or no.

I'm thinking of starting a journal here. I have many unexpressed/repressed sentiments, and an often burdensome sense of personal space, so this seems like the perfect place to push my boundaries. I was going to name the journal something like "Crisis Mid-life", but I'm planning to extend this beyond any single issue, so a more neutral name was obviously appropriate. Well, I'll get to it, then. I am indeed having a mid-life crisis. I'm at an age, and state of body and mind, that makes it obvious that my youth has passed. Passed me by, actually. I didn't make much of it. I couldn't, with the burdens of what I was given as a child and adolescent. Rather than growing my experiences as a vital young man, my teenage years were spent staring at a ceiling, composing a vindictive suicide note in my head and wishing I'd never been born. My home environment was commensurate to that activity, with a hateful and aggressive step-father, and a mother with her head in the clouds who was unwilling to confront the reality that her husband was bringing ruin to her dreams of a happy home. When I went to college out of state, I was able to discover a new perspective on things, and a new consciousness, but was unable to make this new consciousness my home. I was academically gifted, but lacked a lot in life and communication skills. Furthermore, I had learned unnecessary "skills" for survival in a cruel household and unsympathetic community that further hindered me from making my way. I developed my new consciousness as best I could figure out how, but without supporting skills, my experiments generally led to failure in practical outcomes, and I became cynical and morose. If I hadn't had the financial support of my birth father, an emotionally distant but dutiful man, and his side of the family, I don't know what kind of situation I would have descended into. I'm tired now. Thinking about all this, with the wealth of unhappy unexpressed details and the unhappy knowledge of what comes after, is draining. I think the hardest part, perhaps the one thing that made everything hard, was and is the lack of communication. My mother, who did well as a single parent, stopped listening or wanting to know our situation after remarrying. She had to have known it was bad, but she was so determined that a fantastic vision of happiness in her head had to be reality that she cut off contact with the actual reality of her childrens' suffering. Our community was a conservative rural one where I didn't fit in as an academically oriented and practical-skill disoriented individual. I wasn't ostracized, is simply didn't have any peers who I could share any interests with, not caring about football or farming or small engine repair. One further feature of the community, though not a unique one, was the lack of support for struggling parents, and for children struggling under struggling parents. It was a see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil situation. Never do I remember anyone coming to address my conspicuously severe adolescent depression. I've since become aware that there were people who knew my step-father's nature and our suffering, but were disenabled from any positive action by the relentless indifference of the community. So I had nowhere to say anything. My experience was unwanted. My gifts, though recognized in my letter grades, were otherwise unneeded. In college, I came to accept that I was atheistic, a perspective which which had no place or forum in a conservative Christian community. Anything I would have had to say would have meant confronting everyone with something they didn't need or want. The upshot is that I learned that my kind of communication was a skill with no remunerative value, and anything that doesn't make money is worth as much as the money given to support it; nothing. At best, it can be considered a hobby; otherwise, a disgrace. Hard physical labor is paid for, and praised. Running a business is paid for, and praised. Shilling in a church is supported by donations, and praised. Raising children, while not directly compensated, is given financial support by the community and government, and is praised. So I've, erroneously, come to the conclusion that my skills in finding the truth behind matters and expressing it, are an insignificant hobby. Even writing this, I feel that every word that I say is somehow less significant than when I do productive physical labor at work. I somehow feel that my only value is as an oxen, a large stupid beast of burden who has no unnecessary thoughts. I'll never be able to live happily this way, though. I have to find a way to see past the rejection I've experienced, and assign equally great meaning to my words as I do to the products of capitalism. Perhaps that is what maturity is, is being able to assign as much significance to one's self as to authority and conformity and money. As a child, one prioritizes one's parents. As an adolescent, one prioritizes one's peers. As a young adult, one prioritizes one's livelihood. Generally, at no point is it made clear that one needs to discard anything and everything that hinders the prioritization of one's self-determination. There is no wide-spread institution, formal or informal, for introducing such knowledge. I've lived, if not without the knowledge, then without the determination. I've had the knowledge for nearly two decades. I'm not sure yet what my mistake was in applying that knowledge, whether it has been ignorance or cowardice or self-annihilation. Part of it is probably addiction, addiction to the tool of the internet to support various deleterious habits. The internet its self is not the issue, nor so much are the habits, but rather the combination. Even knowing this, I have trouble maintaining a state of mind where I can imagine a present or future of greater gratification than these addictive behaviors provide. That is my mid-life crisis; I've reached the point where the greatest pleasure I can imagine is the dull and unsatisfying experience of cheap self-gratification. I no can no longer support the youthful enthusiasm that there is something left for me to grasp for. When I was younger, even when I failed, I couldn't help but have hopes for the future. After all, I was still young. Now, having surpassed my physical peak, even if I know better, I can't help but to be bereft of hope. Even if I achieve something, I have no youth left with which to enjoy it. I lost those times. Actually, it feels more like those times were taken from me, by callousness and ignorance and outright malice. I can't help but resent those who never cared what I was losing. I've never been able to communicate with those people. Maybe I've lacked the determination to do so. It's hard to blame myself for being unable to communicate with someone who won't hear what I have to say, but maybe a part of communicating is being able to persevere through rejection, and to maintain confidence in the significance of my own words even when situations where nothing comes of them persist. To be self-determined.

His failures are in the past. Try to meet him where he is, rather than where he was. It's important to confirm and acknowledge where he has improved. It's encouraging if he was willing to sit still and listen to your laundry list; just his willingness to listen greatly expands your opportunities for reconciliation. The basics you might focus on are: does he know how you suffered, and does he care that you suffered? If he doesn't know, then he needs to be GENTLY informed. If he doesn't care, then you need to protect yourself. People can be so ignorant that it's almost impossible to believe, but it is so. He may not know that you suffered when he called you names or screamed at you for minor mistakes. His habitual revulsion for himself cut off that awareness, so he couldn't see or know what was indisputably obvious and true. So you may need to gently remind him of the truly obvious, being as unaccusing and nonconfrontational as you can. "Do you know that I suffered a lot when you screamed at me?" At this point, he's likely to make a lot of excuses. Your job is to listen to his excuses, and then further insist on a clear yes/no answer to your question. If he can't give a clear answer, that is a sign that you may need to take measures to protect yourself by distancing yourself, because he's so disconnected from reality and/or your well-being that it might be better to be strangers. If he does give a clear answer, then a complex process begins. You will surely have much more to say about your suffering, and he will also have much to say about his reasons for his misbehavior and what he'd hoped for that wasn't achieved. There may be a lot that you don't know about each others' experiences. Try to focus on where he's at now, rather than where he was. Does he now understand that he can't behave that way with you anymore? Does he now know what is right and what is wrong? He can't change his past, but he can do right in the present. The goal is to reach a point where the past is irrelevant, and you can relate to each other as adults committed to communication and support. You can't change your father into a different kind of person. What you can do is take measures to ensure that your relationship is based on sound principles like trust and honesty and acknowledgement. If you can't achieve that, then self-protection is a priority. Before you die, you want every single close relationship you have to be based on sound principles.

Quite informative.

I feel good about that breakthrough, it seems to have potential. It's not the end; none of us will ever reach the end, I think. We could all get along better somehow. Regarding boundaries, a major thing that needs to be understood is that you must be able to carry through your enforcement when the boundary is crossed. This is difficult to nearly impossible in a situation where you are materially or socially reliant, because enforcing your boundary may cut those material and social ties. If you can't enforce a boundary, it is usually better not to set it in the first place, and to focus on your independence. It's the same principle as your breakthrough. You can't just directly break through depression and suicidal thoughts when they're reinforced by your environment; you have to break through your isolation and create an environment where depression is unnecessary. Just the same, you can't set boundaries in an environment where you are dependent on habitual boundary-violators. You must become independent of the boundary-violators, to the degree that you can enforce your boundaries.

I believe there are (at least) two modes of thought; reflective and experimental. Reflective thought is about reviewing the past, such as looking for clues or understanding errors and faults. This includes revisiting what actually happened, as well as "what if" scenarios where I try to change the outcome in my imagination. I could also call this negative thought, not because it's bad, but because it is proscriptive. It tells me what actions are safe, and what actions to limit or avoid in the future. It tells me what not to do. Experimental thought is about future intent. Dreams, goals, aspirations, predictions. This kind of thought is prescriptive. It's how I decide what actions I will pursue or reinforce in the future. This could also be called positive thought, because though as with any good experiment I don't know what the outcome of these thoughts will be, I do intend for a certain outcome or range of outcomes. It tells me what I am or am going to do. I think balance is key between these two modes. Without reflection, I'm doomed to repeat or exacerbate the errors of my past. Without experimentation, my life becomes a list of actions to avoid without any direction, and repeating the past over and over in my head without limit, I'm just plain doomed. The experience you describe with your sister, and your mother's response, is clearly something you find worthy of reflection. You learned how not to play around like that with your sister. You also learned how easily influenced you are by fear and your mother's scolding. Your experimental intent here is, I am guessing, to find other people who have had comparable experiences and engage with them. When I was around six, I intentionally jabbed my younger sister of around four with the sharp point of a compass for drawing circles, just to see if she would cry. Predictably, she did. I didn't get caught and didn't get in trouble. I also didn't repeat the action, deciding on my own that it was usually better for me when my sister was not crying. So you're not the only child who disregarded their sibling's human rights. Nor, I can assure you, are you the only child who has received excessive scolding with resultant trauma, though I can't think of a specific example at this moment. So you may feel lonely, but you are not necessarily alone. Is there anything else you want to know about our shared experience?

To me it sounds as if you wish you could be the winner, so of course you hate it when you lose an unfair competition.

If you met someone who went through what you've gone through, who was looking for hope and trying to make things better, would you say those same things to them; that they are spoilt and ruined? Would you tell them that they'll never be the same?

Your approach sounds healthy the way you describe it, though it's hard to be sure when it's just one perspective. I doubt her friends show interest in your healthy, artistic social activities, though. Good on you for not capitulating on your values.

@zenburnt You're being really hard on yourself for little reason. There are millions of people starting from much lower standards than you; people who commit violence, abuse, manipulation, etc. You watch porn and play games. The only people who might think that's bad are the parents and teachers who raised you to "make something of yourself." You're traumatized by the control they exercised over your life as a child, with little or no consideration for your independence. Independence of thought is the greatest achievement a person can make, though, and freely entertaining the independent thoughts of another is the greatest gift one can offer (to someone who isn't dying of starvation or something).

To me, it sounds as if most of what you've tried as solutions for finding joy are to remove basic pleasures and add regiments. You're not accepting responsibility for the results of your own actions; you're draining the color out of your own life. The question is, how and why are you doing this to yourself? Have you explored your emotions for hidden bitterness or resentment? Do you have a troubled past, or unresolved traumas?

@Sabth You describe yourself as not being good socially. How bad are you? Do you have friends? Close friends? Does anybody know you? I don't know you and have never met you, but I get the impression that it's been a long time since you've tried to look anyone in the eye and get close to them. How close to the mark am I?