kavaris

Arch (Artix)

So just to give some context first, and then ill resolve everything at the end, so dont worry (yous just have to bare w/ me, as theres a few things i have to explain) The most important text here is probably the Testament of Solomon, a Greek pseudepigraphical work that presents itself as Solomon narrating how he commanded demons to build the Temple; It describes specific demons by name, their functions, the celestial forces that bind them, and the verbal/ritual means of compelling them. This is not fringe material, as it sits in a direct line from the broader Solomonic tradition, which in Second Temple Judaism assoc. Solomon w/ wisdom over spirits based on a passage in the book of Kings ~that later interpreters expanded enormously! Closely related are the texts found at Qumran, particularly the Songs of the Maskil and 11QApocryphal Psalms (11Q11), which contain explicit verbal formulas directed against demons. These are the earliest datable examples we have of something functioning like conjuration within a Jewish-proto-Christian framework, from roughly the 1st century BCE. The practitioner speaks directly at hostile spirits, invoking divine names and attributes to repel or bind them. Jesus performs exorcisms constantly in gospels. Alas, the gospel writers are somewhat particular in distinguishing/scrubbing or writing around it, such that later, it'd not be recognized as what contemporaries might call conjuration (note, that I summarize this word at the very end). The distinction is in ἐξουσία (exousia — authority, inherent power) and τέχνη (technique, craft). When Jesus commands an unclean spirit in Mark 1, the crowd's reaction is specifically astonishment that he speaks with authority and not as the scribes: names, formulas, and ritual is scrubbed. ἐξουσία is the one the gospel and epistle writers are conveying~for Jesus and by delegation for his followers, and τέχνη is the one that has to be written around, suppressed, or reframed, otherwise you get some fairly surprising stuff happening. Then you have the curious ep., Acts 19 (the sons of Sceva) seven itinerant Jewish exorcists who try to use Jesus's name as a conjuration formula against a demon, essentially treating "the name of Jesus" as a powerful voces magicae. The demon responds by saying it knows Jesus and Paul but not them, and physically attacks them. Jesus, the Necromancer, scrubbed from history. The Greek Magical Papyri (PGM) from Egypt?, 2nd-5th centuries CE, are indispensable, as they contain explicit syncretic material, including invocations of Iao, Adonai, Sabaoth, and by the later papyri, Jesus, alongside Egyptian and Greek divine names. These show you the actual working-level religious technology of the period, as opposed to the theological positions of the canonical writers. The presence of Judaeo-Christian divine names in the PGM tells us that these names were understood in the broader Hellenistic-Egyptian religious marketplace as particularly powerful voces magicae, regardless of what the nascent church thought about By the 2nd-3rd century CE the church fathers are actively theorizing, Origen in particular, Contra Celsum, discusses the power of names at considerable length — arguing that divine names carry intrinsic power tied to their sound and form, not merely their meaning~a striking concession to the logic of conjuration, even as Origen is trying to distinguish Christian practice from it (Tertullian and later John Chrysostom are playing a part in treating anything magical-in-nature as bad and deceptive... shameful) "Shame" is a sudden feature in the first century that previously hadnt been treated like OMG, whys everyone naked. Why are there zombies and demons in the literature, get it out! Like, if Jesus's name genuinely compels demons — which the exorcism tradition absolutely insists it does — then what exactly is the difference between that and conjuration? The answer that the tradition reaches for is the exousia distinction, the name works as a formula~activating impersonal cosmic machinery, as well as for personal, delegated divine authority. ---------------------------------- P.s. What is "conjuration" In Early Christianity? Conjuration is described as a process or act that involves invoking or summoning spiritual entities. This practice is explored in terms of its effects on both the soul and demons, as well as their responses to such acts. The examination of conjuration highlights its significance in understanding spiritual interactions within the framework of early Christian beliefs (and its not to dismiss incantations, inscriptions, invocation, evocation, necromancy, ritualistic ceremony, sacred offerings, divination, psychic/telepathic powers, etc.,"to conjure<something>" pertaining to all of these too) ⸸ conjuration is the reverse ~upside down~ cross, abjuration ☥ is the ankh, the upright up-cross, leading of either a spirit, or your soul, either abjuring to~or conjuring from (realm of the dead)

Oh wow, nice. Hey, bring it back. Make a BSD thread jk (i do really like BSD variants, certain ones have things that like, dang that wsht woulda been the best if it was paired w/ linux... maybe that requires a discussion/collab, LFS thread...)

Cuneiform of Assyrian/Akkadian like that of Asherbanipal is horrific. I was just looking at this this morning, and my godis it not intelligble at all, as its more like How to document words that might mean something later, like its got so many incoherent phrases that couldve implied any number of things. And then someone shows Cuneiform to the hebrews or maybe the canaanites and they start using real letters pressed into cuneiform tablets, like going back to the literal stone age of communication, sending the people backwards like some flight of the phoenix into god knows what (Clay tablets are like the twitter of real materials, wood, runestone columns and petra, and skin, and paper...) Imean, we could prolly name all the writing systems and languages in one message, unless it includes like, very intricate african/south american and islander languages, who have questionable writing systems, if they even have writing systems. Like lets see here: Arabic, Aramaic (Syrian-Aramaic, etc), Indian lineage, Asian lineage, Turkish and the various ones in and around Persia and Turkiye... Like Going through mountains and Caspian Sea Latin & Greek (we just went one column over...) Bulgarian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, Macedonian.... Baltic Sea Lithuanian, Latvian and Old Prussian Albanian... Armenian, cause yous prolly get em confused like i do... Romance/Castellano languages (Prior Italic/Etruscan and variants), Irish ppl languages, i.e. Welsh, Irish, Scottish Gaelic, Breton.. Germanic English, Frisian, Dutch, Flemish, German, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic, Faroese, Luxembourgish, Old Norse (Gothic and various ones) Finnish Sign Languages I need an English-Estonian dictionary... Oh you cant forget Tolkien's Gnomish and Quenya (based languages, for everything else in the lotr legend) *Note, I was looking through the Unicode Character Table, and there is some crazy crazy writing systems for some of the recorded & well known aboriginal and tribal peoples

Yas pulled out an old memory, i cant even remember this thread, or wat we was on. Was i in here tlkin bout linux too?

Eventually, I do wanna get to these other things i been working on (eventually) involving Poseidon and Atlantis, as i also feel like yous would find it all interesting, granted i dont know ifanyones mentioned Atlantis before... So its just a feeling. But for right now, and going by what the trend has been, such as in books, like The Emerald Tablets of Thoth the Atlantean by Maurice Doreal which ive only gotten through the first 20 pages, So i dont know if it ever describes things in terms of geography and/or family lineages, as its more akin to a prose-ified narrative or somethin', that is, someone having received the emerald tablets, who is passing down the information to us~what the tablets say/mean, and what this person learned as a result Sortve akin to divine inspiration or connection to a higher power, Poimanders to H.Trismegistus ~ but in story form, And so, that begins w/ Thoth having come from Atlantis to establish Egypt. But I was thinking there could also be something in history, where someone begins from Egypt/Africa ~more likely~ and then says "Hey, lets try boating over the lip of water here~at the coast of Libya~to see whats on the other side" And in doing that, a small commune agrees to establish that land in Europe, and something happens, and they never really get things going, or the locals there (and those who 'held back in LibYa), figure out that that 'settlement that had all the people going to Atlantis', it was very much successful, And then they decide to go over there and steal all their sht Very conniving, backstabbing, as its sortve like *secret commune that they are encroaching But also, they are ruining the history in terms of like, having broken the relationship between the Atlanteans and the Africans who are to become Egyptians. They sortve end up staggering what wouldve been a peaceful community. Nevertheless, we might say that Thoth was one of these individuals (a representative of) or a *marker, like the name "Moses" in that, many people had the name Moses~granted Moses was a real name, and im not so sure about like, how we get to the Egyptian vers., of Thoth, but i do know that its ḏḥwty (transliterated Djehuty or Tehuti) and if you pronounce that in your head [djuh-who-tee'] or [teh-who-tee'] that sounds like a real name that many people wouldve had, making it more than just a pseudonym or a characterization, but its probably like Moses or Adam, etc., like these are super common names probably. But anyway, Poseidon adds a whole nother wrinkle to the story. It is why we would have to split these two stories up, as we are opening a very weird can of worms by going in both directions, Alas i thought yous might find this interesting. And if yous have anything yous wanna add, know, or say~or if you wanna know more about the things im writing about, on Poseidon, i mean, feel free to just let it roll off the tongue. And I realize that it might be too much on ppl, too much for yas to digest. Nothin wrong w/ that.

@Mixcoatl We can atleast say that "truth" (generally) is something you can point at (direct towards), for yourself, and unto others. That gives you truth as more of a "locus". At some point, *language itself, and words like ego and truth take on different forms/meanings, and what was once the "looking for truth" become something more akin to reality itself ~So Truth is not always the destination, in the search for truth (that is in the context of our whole lives being a testament to truth, or rather, the "attempt to discern"). Truth evolves. In discerning truth, you are distilling something alchemical. We are *occupied by the perception of limitations and truths of experience, Ergo on one end, we are taking up the space via * these other forms. And so therefore, that which exists, exists Now, as well as that which we are moving or facing is itself [there] but in a sense we just dont perceive it beyond "the happenings that we think are called truth" And just to conclude this, there's two different destinations on the path of the Philosopher~which has to do w/ this initial relaxing of the Ousia of the self, and the acknowledgement around the Istemi~ its something akin to a direction or arrow that links the inner and outer models, that which leads to a sort of truth of the matter. Though, calling it "truth" (as opposed to "a truth") is a bit odd, because then there's this other road that builds on the distillations of truth, which is a separate sortve path, and it doesnt necessary encapsulate the istemi, though it doesnt exclude it. It does assume one should be atleast somewhat familiar w/ it as a possibility, as these two things, *truth and the -istemi towards, are somewhat tangential in nature. Or maybe it should be phrased as, "istemi exists to deepen the distillation" (or vice versa)

Its a good question, and im gonna look for a book on short introductions (likely yous are touching on~anything that crosses the multiple realms we've been talking about... Religion, Philosophy, Physiology/Biology or Ancient Medicine... Grammar, or Languages, or the Arts... Logic, as well as Spiritual or Mystical things that counter, or compliment Rational Logic) And on the topic of Religion ~ or the realm right before, this word "soteriology" -> The study or doctrine of salvation definitely applies to Christianity. I just so happened to be looking at it in this moment. Edit: There might be a title for the study of "that which exists right before Christianity" but i dont know what it is, and its fairly new if it does exist, or atleast i didnt know there was a such thing, beyond "the study of antiquity"? Maybe? @Joseph Maynor Oh okay. That actually helps alot. Theology is gonna be, "The study of the nature of God and religious truth", Aristotle i of course know well, and thats gonna be the following (These are basically what Aristotle's treatises are called too): 1. Logic -> technical explanations for categories around substance, quantity and quality, statements, affirmations, earliest language around "logic" 2. Pychology, Biology 3. Metaphysics, or First Principles & Being; Metaphysics referring to qua being; substance; form and matter; et caetera 4. Ethics and Politics - how to live and organize society 5. Rhetoric and Poetics (which is on language, persuasion, art) p.s. i had written on Aristotle, so i had categories all laid out in front of me already, lol. Anyway, yous can use that to find books.

Bonus Ques., #2: And this is more getting into the individual provinces, like Sparta, Athens, etc, etc., which is for instance, Why were Spartans so obsessed w/ being warriors (or why were the people of the community, both the elders and the warriors, why were they thinking you needed some dedicated warrior foundation & fundamentals to attack, defend and strategize)? Like, Ive not looked outside of the basic warrior-aspect of Sparta, as I was originally focused on Sparta from the perspective of the outcasts, the Spartans who were kicked out and who ended up sailing to Italy (Puglia, where my ancestors are from. but my ancestors definitely were not big strong, warrior-minded people at all, so iuno who the fk is related to Spartans) And so like, that is a whole nother side of the Spartans most people dont know of; But if we stay in mainland Greece, we see how Spartans really rely on Athenians and others to learn words and grammar and such... Like, they werent dumb or anything like that, but they needed a little help to get going, cause they were sortve fixated on war (im describing this wrong, cause its part of their role in society to be warriors, but the question is how you join, and how you leave/besides through banishment to leave, being very young when you join~or so they say~and is a question i have, and i dont know how that process works), nevertheless they sound like traumatized souls, dark souls in terms of the way they are to be this cloister of warriors, but i guess the military is this same idea, or similar. But that is to say that there is more complexity to these stories that we need to dig up to really understand them, and im just naming Sparta and Athens cause they are the two most recognizable, though i meant to really touch on other cultures~And accidentally go caught up describing Sparta. In any case, that is one such question.

Bonus Ques.: Is there a connection to Orphic tradition, and the musicians within that context? Atleast, those are the sortve of questions that also connect back to this, granted, *Orpheus in itself is complex, and could be opening up a can of fiery worms Note: I had Greek Mythology and related in High School (im 37) lol, but i mean to say, back when i was 17-18, this was the only subject I was interested in, cause the teacher was talking about like, "How so & so represented the boy's penis" ~in the story~ Not that i remember what we were talking about, But im just saying, this stuff was cool. Like the computer class was cool too, but i kept getting in trouble during the last two years of school, for me. So Mythology was more up my aily, in the sense that~it was accepting of chaos. If yous arent accepting of Chaos, i cant really shine. Like i have a theory that the reason the Old Norse/Germanic side got turned onto Christianity was cause they were essentially striving for order, and not true chaos. However, its possible they didnt have a true understanding of it either, and were just initially thinking of Jesus as "another god" in the pantheon, that which represented and orderly living. This may not be true, and ive not investigated it, but i just have a feeling. That is, I feel as though, the chaos goes where the chaos was made, and somewhere around the Greek and Roman interaction, theres a real chaotic thing preserved, that which is in between Jesus and the Bronze Age Collapse, and these events where its like, you have all these cultures who are like, uprooting their own traditions, and relocating. We dont know alot about it, cause ive tried to look back into history to find out, and we simply dont know enough, outside of say Greek writers/commentary and Egyptian records (who btw, are very thorough in naming all the cultures, Alas thats not what i mean to talk about) I mean to direct our attention towards what I call Mythological Period, up to today. Like, on the surface, it my seem like it goes from hunter gatherers, to farming, to proto-civilization, but its more like, cycles of life, and we are misunderstanding, in living form, like. We cant understand history because we are that far away, but we can, in the very least, say how we feel about it, and why it happened the way we think it happened, using our misunderstanding as a way of pointing to that which mightve happened.

This stuff is very hard to figure out, so i dont blame anyone if they cant contribute, Alas ive started reading and writing alot on this topic, and I def am interested, BUT admittedly, its one of the hardest topics to really see into. That is, if any of yous want to figure it out w/ me, this is the invitation to do just that, and to join me in figuring it out ~or to point me in a direction that might help me (us) understand the Archaic Period and Classical Greece, in order to get a better sense for what it was like, leading into the Hellenistic and Roman Periods. I was inspired by @Nemra in how he titled his thread, but i thought that i dont think theres gonna be enough books around this very specific thing that im looking at ATM, which rests on knowing "the history of the Muse and the Musician" (or just helping me to understand day to day life in Archaic/Classical Greek living), and learning about places such as Ancient Sparta and the rest of Greece, cause there's this peculiar and unrecognizable thing going on~After we come out of the Mycenaean Period to Archaic an Classical Period of Greece, specifically in terms of How the Muse is perceived, and its relationship to the Musician, we begin to see this personification of the gods through the musicians. Musicians back then were quite different: And just how Greeks experienced & thought of the Muse was quite different. The common word for Muse simply referred to rhythmic speech ... We have to figure the Muse out, cause its so complex, just in itself By the Medieval Period, we all know how the Musicians had all become more like the town jesters, or the town scryer in the way they functioned in day to day life. In stark contrast, the musician in Archaic Greece WAS the personification, they were the Metamorphoses, or a Mythological Anthropomorphism towards people not objects (characters or people), because they received the Muse and communicated it further. Im using terms that i am assuming you are familiar with, so hopefully you will looks into these terms, and what they mean in the context im talking about. Some of you might know what im talking about. Youd be surprised what weve come to learn, as far as the role of the musician and music itself is concerned, how they could subsequently evoke the muse ~or~they were the muse ~invoking through them, and being perceived as such, given their connection to the gods... And the gods are basically like, 'who the Greeks rely on for answers and for settling disputes, et caetera, etc. So, invoking the muse, to them, it was seen as this powerful thing that went beyond inspiration for some artsy means (quite the contrary), it crossed into political, social and spiritual affairs and disputes, and many more things going on in their daily lives (of course, thats is part of my question, getting to the bottom've Ancient Greece) The muse was an extension of the gods, and the musician was akin to a vehicle for that purpose. Likewise, it was the musician who would personify the Muse and play the songs that would then dictate what would happen, like they depended on the musician to say "who is stronger" or "who performed the best" or "who deserves to be heard by the oracle" or something, transferring the right of personification to the individual, and in some sense giving a voice to that individual. In some sense they even were playing the role of the oracle. These are of course the kinds of questions we want to have answered. The musician was essentially establishing what the rules and laws would be in the coming centuries. They were establishing what the language itself should be and sound like, what significance should be carried in words and their meanings, prescribing meaning and giving a voice to the things that we, in todays day and age take for granted as already having and possessing a voice. The word i use for the tradition around Greek gods is Metamorphoses: That is, the transformation of the quality within a god, likened to that of a quality we now see as something a human today may express, or possess (emotions, qualities, traits, et caetera). And the Greeks relied on the gods for those things, including answers to solve hard dilemmas, even if the musician wasnt there or the muse wasnt there, they had to really weigh on the gods for a clue as to what to do, given their devotion towards them. The Greeks have this musical language, this mode of expression that you really have to understand in order to understand them. Of course, i havent done a good job explaining just how significant the language/music was (not to mention, the gods themselves were) in everyday life, nor have I explained WHY the gods were so significant, and things like that, but that is because this topic sortve requires you to have investigated it ~im sortve asking for alot, but I believe yous will figure something out~

This might be confusing, as i didnt really preface w/ "why it would be weighted", based on something from the context of the history, so lets see if yous figure it out on your own and reconstruct it for me, cause its part of the process for the rest of the idea. For you have this healthy dose of certain worlds~or ideas from ppl~adding to the conversation, and it builds upon what is like an idea that may have more potential once you think deeply into it. And maybe its just really really interesting, and thats it. You never know though when youve crossed an idea thats gonna cascade into something else, and into something else. Like we're just brainstorming.

@UnbornTao I guess theres three things here that are conflated together (meaning that, even i am conflating them together, because they are that integrated) 1. The presumptions in/around a thing~or things 2. The assumption of what we think we (or they) think, how they think of those things ~ 3. And then, the initialized belief that we think we know anything about the thing we think we know 4. Is maybe the bonus, which is like this thing that lives in between these three things, as the substance that makes all of it fluid, and you can sortve point towards Plato as a means of saying something about form, or some foundation to even point to (cause otherwise, we have broken our foundation, and we have no where to go, which isnt necessarily a good state to be staggered in between, but it isnt necessarily bad either)

@everyone into health, As yous can see, i stocked up on the Jewish rye this week, as ima be busy nd have to had to get everything today~note, it says "Jerusalem" in the hebrew. and pretty much anything w/ russian, ukrainian or jewish is like a symbol that you are dealing w/ real food But it goes to show how the most current depictions are like this weighted entry into what things mean to us, and why they might matter~Moses, although hes from three thousand years ago or whatever, he could become an example, a symbol of a sect of religion that can be built upon more of like the goblinesque, trollish tribal signs of the serpent that might be enjoyable to research~and the continued search for learning the interplay of Israel, Egypt and the Imiddle est—he can represent the Μοῦσαι, Moses / Musais, and become the Muse re-inspired, reverted, inspirational symbol of love, devoid of the softening, and more so taking on the functions of our current paradigms. I mean, his name is so close to "Muse" so its an opportunity awaiting us.

@UnbornTao If you wanna see a neat Philosophy that is also unknown (probably even lesser known than skepticism) Synechism (~19th CE Philosophy) from the Greek root/base συνεχής, continuous (continuity), uninterrupted & holding or~held together by~ σύν (syn-) → together, with + ἔχω (échō) → to hold, have, keep (plus the adj. end -ής) Philosophical term: "Doctrine of continuity", or in laymens terms, synchenism is the idea that continuity is fundamental, or that it is fundamentally continuous, and so therefore continuity is the key principle for understanding everything else. I mean, its basically what alot of people would be into, they just don't normally have the most correct terms from history to describe it; Or they atleast dont know they are into it, given that its hard to constantly be on the precipice of breaking, or acknowledging one's own shortcomings (in regards to their most fundamental ideas) ~which ties into the "centipedes dilemma", combined w/ a little of like, Heidegger's "being-in-the-world" idea, where you don't stand outside your worldview and observe it you are already operating inside it, so the world shows up as the total field~the holon~of meaning, as opposed to something you can easily bracket and escape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heideggerian_terminology