HMD

@zazen But see, the Jews/Israel were persecuted for thousands of years, so it's okay if they do these things.

Okay, I did that I understand how Israel is just attacking its oppressors. But you can not justify war crimes and genocidal behavior as self-defense.

Their motive? "A grudge against the Unification Church, with which Abe was connected". And it ties with religion too.

Yes, I can see the Israeli perspective as well. But it's more difficult for me to sympathize with that perspective than the Palestinian perspective.

@Starlight321 They'll still keep using Hamas as an excuse to raid and bomb Gaza. Perhaps more than ever.

Why was secular nationalism more dangerous than, let's say, Religious nationalism? That's because secularity is a struggle for homeland. That's why Noa chomsky said that the west discouraged National secularism and spread Religious nationalism, so that when your country is being looted you don't care about it much and focus on international religion based issues. So, when there are struggles for secular nationalism in a country, it's difficult to perform exploitation there. Reminds me of what Nietzsche said " Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings, who think themselves good because they have crippled paws!" I love how even after Japan was bombed by the US no terrorist organizations were formed. And today, they are standing head to head with them. They fought with innovation and by making themselves better. That's something the Muslim community fails to see. Competition is the way forward, not war.

Okay, but then explain what happened with PLO ?

"Furthermore, Brig General Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 198os, told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a "counterweight to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as a creature of Israel')." General Segev even admitted to funding" "Regrets among those Israeli officials who helped the creation of Hamas are well documented. For instance, Avner Cohen, a Tunisia-born Jew who was an Israeli official in Gaza dealing with religious affairs during 1970s and 1980s, lamented that "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation". He observed the Islamist" PLO was a headache for Israelis BECAUSE IT WAS BASED ON secular nationalism. They were not spreading antisemitism. They were advocating for a document based solution instead of war, which was not appealing to the west and Israel.

Of course. I can't go to someone's face and call them a bastard, even if they are.

Yes, they are. But Hamas is a child of Israel.

Yup. And Israel has greater power to achieve such a goal. It's a nuclear power.

@Breakingthewall The Palestinians never advocated for Israel’s extermination. And if you think Hammas is trying to exterminate Israel, keep in mind that there is plenty of evidence that Hammas was initially founded by Israel itself. Why? Maybe because it’s difficult to grab more land when there is peace. But if there is a monster that they can blame and scapegoat to, then it’s easy to kill thousands of people in the name of self-defense. Understand that a two-state resolution goes against Israel’s interest. I am not in support of Hamas neither do I support their action. Even Palestinian don’t want Hamas to represent them (only 31% of Palestinians say that they want Hamas to represents them).

I understand your perspective. And don't you think Israel’s occupation of Gaza and its closed identity is multifaceted? Like, there could be several reasons for it, other than Muslim aggression. For instance, they might want to solidify their identity and appear strong after the Holocaust, they may have got greedy with expanding their territory (like all systems do).

Let's assume all of what you said is true. It still doesn't justify Israel’s takeover of that region.

How does one justify this?

@Vrubel Probably, because the British were reluctant to let the Jews immigrate to Palestine. They probably knew the outcome of it.

It’s mind-blowing to see that you are saying this with all the information at hand. If Israel were so cooperative then why are there UN Resolution 242, the Oslo Accords, the Gaza-Jericho Agreement, and the Gaza Disengagement Plan? And even after all these resolution, why can’t Israel keep it’s hands off of Gaza? Why does it still controls the airspace and maritime boundaries of the Gaza Strip? With the right to raid at any time?

This was the modern equivalent of a trojan horse. 1000s of palestinians have been killed ever since. “Pick up a bee out of kindness and learn the limitations of kindness” - Idrees shah

@PurpleTree That’s a good thing imo. The rot leaks out under pressure and the systems are purified.

@Rafael Thundercat That’s the only viable way forward, imo.

Yeah that what I had in the back of my head, thanks for putting it into words. But I thought the UK was one of the more green countries, and SD stage green is very inclusive. Perhaps it’s only at stage Yellow that one accepts even the extreme stuff and suspend complete judgement. Additionally, it could be that fear cause a regression in development.

Btw, UK Home Secretary says waving the Palestinian flag might be a hate crime. What are they even thinking?

@Breakingthewall I understand where you’re coming from. There are states where Islamic teaching manifest in an extreme manner. The problem then is not religion but the state. The Quran has a whole chapter devoted specifically on how to deal woth non-muslims: Say, "O disbelievers, ۝ I do not worship what you worship. ۝ Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. ۝ Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. ۝ Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. I am not in favor of following religion mindlessly. But religion provides the initial structure needed to stop you from falling into traps and equipping you with the necessary theory. Yes, one has to be careful not to take religion too literally and there comes a stage when you have to transcend religion, which is scary and advanced. But it’s a nice start, especially if you find the right teacher.

@Breakingthewall All I hear is “ I am an arrogant person who has never been humbled, I like to make assumptions and generalisations about other people without knowing jacksh*t about them”. And that’s not how Islam works. You have been brainwashed by God knows whom. Look into wahdat al wajood and ibn al arabi if you want to understand Islam. Or else, stay ignorant and crude.

@Breakingthewall God