Lila9

The thing is that these organizations' data can't be trusted. Especially Save the Children, there is a lot of critisicm about the credibility of their data and about their true intentions in protecting and advocating for children. They claim to be not biased by they are biased as hell. This organization has been researched by NGO monitor which reaserch non-profit organizations such as STC. https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/save_the_children_fund/ Some of their conclusions:

If there was an approved data that isn't made up by some biased organizations and social media accounts it was another story but here it's not the case. Just a talk with no ground in reality. Yes and it's crazy that some people buy so easily into this stage red manipulation. Especially westerns. They are probably the types who get easily scammed by criminals.

Israel has the right to defend itself. It's if Israel limits the access, there is a reason for that, it doesn't come out of no where. Please stop pretending that the people there are innocent victims who never had bad intentions and all they want is to have peace with Israel, it's not correct. Bruh, Israel was occupied by the Arabic empire a while ago, who is the occupier? I doubt that it was happened. No, it's because there are much worse problems in the world and that people understand that most of these claims about mistreatment of Palestinians are incorrect and made up.

You should look at the Palestinian government, who governs then? They are governed by terrorists. These people receive so much money frim all over the world, why don't they use it to improve the lives of the Palestinians? They radicalize their own people, first and foremost.

I don't agree that this definition of ethnical cleansing applies either, or at least, I would say that it's too early to use this term. I don't think that you can call evacuation of people to save their lives as ethnical cleansing. Would you prefer them to be bombed and killed instead? And we haven't know yet how this evacuation would end, chances they will return to this territory, not immediately thought, but it's very likely. It seems that people seek to use these big words, and when they actually use this, they do that in a disproportionate manner. The thing is that there are attempts to bring hostages back through military operation. A very few of them were successful, others not. It's not easy and it puts the hostages lives at risk. Some people who returned back from the captivity said that they hoped the military wouldn't try to save them through military operation because they constantly were near Hamas terrorists who threatened to kill them if they suspected the military is too close. Yes I agree that Israel has some responsibility in Hamas radicalization, there are some chain events which helped to Hamas become more radical, but this is not necessarily negative chain events like puting more pressure on Palestinians or worsening their conditions, like many people in your position probably assume. In fact it was the quite opposite, the letinant approach of Israel, the indifference to the terror, the naivity at the beginning of Hamas when it only formed itself, are the mistakes and the chain events which led to this radicalization. Many stupid and naive mistakes of the Israeli government, the pride and the underestimation of the capabilities and intentions of their enemy. This is a classic mistake, the underestimation of the enemy. Israel has responsibility, chain events Israel was part of but not the chain events that you might think it was, as I explained above. In a war there are no winners, only losers, and we are all losers, both the Israelies and the Palestinians, of this conflict. We are the victims of our Karma, our mistakes, our bad choices, beliefs and same are the Palestinians, they are the victims of their Karma, their mistakes, their bad choices and beliefs. This is only up to us to resolve our Karma, same as this is only up to them to resolve their Karma.

Thank you 🌹

This population always was radicalized. You think that you can apply here logic without taking into account toxic ideology which is an emotional attachment to certain beliefs. Antisemitic and anti Israel beliefs which was much before Israel's establishment. This is far from being a genocide, to scream that this is a genocide in every opportunity is highly biased and irrational. This is a well planned military operation given the Israel's development limitations, a war between two parties which Israel didn't start. Just because you judge black and white thinking doesn't mean you are immune to that.

The thing is that there were attacks on Jews during these years prior to Israel's establishment, therefore it wouldn't be correct to say that they were welcomed by Arabs with open arms, because they didn't. And it's not like there were Arabs once attacking Jews and it's ended after Israel's established and the occupation of the WB, these attacks have never ended, they have gotten worse during the years and Israel responded to these attacks. You criticize the mistreatment of Israel of the Palestinians which is valid, but what you are missing is that the Palestinians in the WB are not innocent. It was another thing if they were innocent, and if it was the case, and they were like the Jews in the gettos in the holocaust, I would have been the first to advocate for them. But in reality they live just fine, they have quality of life, they are not starving, they have cool businesses there, many of them are working in Israel. Yet, many of them still constantly try to kill and terrorize Israelies, and they come with creative ideas each time which require the soliders to be more paranoid and alert each time. They exploit good or fair treatment to commit terror. There were so many times where Palestinian women went to the checkpoints with a belly that appears pregnant and requested to pass into Israel in order to get treatment and later it has been found that she is not pregnant but carry an exploitive device or knife with the purpose to stab as many people as she could. That's why checkpoints are the way they are, everyday some Palestinians are trying to pass to Israel with ill intentions of killing. Not to mention how many times Palestinians killed settlers or just random Israeli people who mistakenly got to the WB because of disruptions in GPS, they are usually welcomed with a mass of people throwing rocks on their cars and they are lucky if they ending up alive. When we are talking about rocks we are not talking about little stones but about heavy rocks, this area in particular is full of these and they are a dangerous weapon like any other weapon. And all the times Palestinians managed to enter to the Israeli territory and committed terror attacks and suicidal attacks, against random Israeli people. So the picture is much more nuanced than Israelies not treating well Palestinians because they are being 'evil occupiers' and rasicts, or the claim that Palestinians are like the Jews in gettos in the Holocaust. Which is a complete distortion of the reality. If I or any random Israeli person want to go to the WB, there is no promise that we will end up alive or not injured, while if a Palestinian enters to the Israeli territory, which happens everyday because there are many workers from Palestine, it's more likely that they will return back to their homes in the Palestinian territories safely and alive.

I understand that you have bias of avoiding aggression and violence. I don't think that I'm pro it either. This is normal. The last thing that I want is to be in a situation of a war. What I'm trying to say is that we have entered to this war because of this severe expression of violence and aggression towards us and if many in Israel previously believed that this conflict can be resolved peacefully and comfortably, this time there is collective realization or awakening that we don't have an ally for a peaceful and comfortable resolutions, we are dealing with psychopaths who can't tolerate our mere existence that would have eliminate us if they only could, with great pride. It's not that simple, if you deal with stage red mentality you have to show power, you can't be an hippie seeking comfort. It has been tried many times, didn't work. Made things worse. You assume that we should avoid being agressive in all costs to solve agression. But there are situations when agression is necessary, especially if it prevents even bigger aggression and violence.

@BlueOak I don't need you to condemn Hamas just to make me feel good if you don't genuinely feel that way. It doesn't matter, it won't change anything. You are entitled to your opinions. Say what you want to say, and I will express my perspective. You shared your thoughts on what Israel should have done, and I responded from my point of view. You can agree or disagree. I understand that you value your perspective more because you identify as stage yellow, capable of considering various perspectives. You might be right, wrong, or a mix of both. Whatever. I want to emphasize again that what you see from a distance may not necessarily reflect what is happening here, for better or worse. Be open to the possibility that your distance can be both a disadvantage and an advantage.

They did even worse than that to Jews, and if they could they would have done more. October 7 was the peak of it. They literally shot living people genitals and breasts, shot parents in front of their children and vise versa, gang raped women and burned living people. The level of cruelty can't really be comparible. You compare cases of a few radical Jews which saddens most of the Israelies given that it really happened, to a terror policy against Jews and Israel that many Palestinians, if not the majority of the Palestinians, were ok with and celebrated on the streets.

I asked you a question first and you haven't answered it, so you are not in a place to say that I don't answer your questions. Answer my question first and then I will answer yours, I really want to know. Do you care about other Palestinians outside of Israel territory? Or do you close your eyes to the mistreatment of Palestinians outside of Israel because they are mistreated by non Israelies? If you say that Israel doesn't have the right to exist because of the way it exists now, for me it means that you believe Israel has no right to exist. You can't sugarcoat it. You've tried I know, but your truth is obvious for me. No more word games are required. Are there more countries you believe have no right to exist the way they exist? Or Israel is the only one? If Israel's existence is not in your best interest, and you consume this great amount of cherry picked content on social media to rationalize your bias, I don't think that you are in a place to call me a propagandist. This is very childish and disrespectful indeed, to call someone you don't agree with a propagandist. It also shows that you don't want to learn and make a productive discussion with those whose their lives are directly affected by the conflict. It seems you just want to hold your bias close to your chest, and it also seems that you have the arrogance to look from the far distance and cancel our perspective completely by calling it a propaganda just because it doesn't match your bias. I speak my very reality and the reality of people here who care about Israel and love it. We are mainly fueled by love to Israel, not by hatred to Palestinians. This is the motivation. Don't fool yourself by calling your opinions objective and more logical, because your opinions about the conflict based on emotional motivation. Behind logic there are emotional motivations. This is why I asked you what I asked you, to understand your fundamental emotional motivation of your opinions about the conflict, is this love or hatred? I'm aware of the flaws of Israel and the problems here, it's not perfect, but it's not the demon you draw. There is no shame in emotions and love, I didn't know that it's a crime to support the country I live in and I also didn't know that you are holding the ultimate truth and everything that doesn't match your biased and limited perspective is a propaganda. I don't try to convince you in my truth, I'm fine with you thinking differently than me, and feeling differently than me, I share what I know, take it or leave it.

I wouldn't say that Israel acted with great wisdom, but I can't say that Israel acted purely on emotions either. If Israel acted purely on emotions, there was no Palestinian left alive. On both Gaza and the West Bank. because if Israel's response matched the emotional suffering Israel has experienced because of the October 7 attack, that would be the outcome, no life on Gaza and the West Bank. It's easy to judge from outside, when your safety and the safety of your loved ones isn't at risk. It's easy to say, from your pov that you would have done this instead of that, because you are not emotionally involved, because the survival and safety of Israel is not in your best interest. It's just a country with people for you and whether it will be safe or at risk won't affect your life and survival that much. This is why it's easy for you to talk about logic and cold calculations. I'm not disrespecting logic and calculations, I think that strategy and certain emotional distance is required to get good results and it's part of the solution. And I think that given the circumstances, Israel's response is quite logical. I know that you and others here expect super hero holistic, systemic stage yellow solution to the conflict, coming from Israel, but you need to understand that Israel has limitations as well, Israel's government and army are not yellow to pull of such solutions. There is no government in the world who is like that, currently. Not in your country, and not in any country. That's rare. A country is considered very lucky if it has at least one person in the government with stage yellow thinking. Israel's government has mainly blue/orange values while the military has orange values mainly. Israel's neighbors are not Sweden or Denmark, so Israel cannot allow themselves to appear too indifferent to terror because this seen as weakness in this region and it's very easily gets exploited. In fact, Israel's recent indifference until the October 7 attack was what gave Hamas the opportunity to commit the attack. With neighbors such Hamas, you can't get to a peaceful solution, or reconciliation. It's either they win and you lose or you lose and they win. Israel tried to be peaceful, it didn't work, it made things worse for Israel, it gave Hamas the opportunity to become stronger and become more dangerous. It's not to say that Israel can't be criticized. That's valid. But there is a serious problem if Israel is the only one who gets critized. It shows that the criticism is not objective and heavily biased, fueld by ill intentions.

These refugees who are living in other Arab countries, not in Israel. Do you care about them? Have you bothered to check their conditions? Is your motivation for advocating for the rights of the Palestinians in Israel in particular, stems from your love to the Palestinians as a group or your hatred towards Israelies? If you love and care about Palestinians, then you should love and care about all the Palestinians elsewhere and put accountable not only Israel for mistreating them, but all the countries who have them, for mistreating them because they do mistreat them and worse than Israel could ever imagine. If you care only about the Palestinians in Israel, even though there are other Palestinian refugees in suffering, then it might be because you don't like Israel, and your main motivation is hatred for Israel rather than love for Palestinians.

It lights up not only this thread but the entire forum 🕎🌞

Yet, with all of your wording, it summes up to a war of values. Living in a society with stage red values vs stage orange, I don't even need to explain what are the differences because I assume you know, and which is better to live in. Relatively, not ideally. If you have to choose, most likely it would be orange. And it's not wise to be letinant with stage red. This is the flaw of green, this demonization of self defense, of having healthy bounderies, of being ruthless with those who are ruthless with you.

They were kiked out as a "revenge". They didn't welcomed them with "open arms". They were suspicious of them and terrorized them since the presence of the Othman empire because they felt intimidated.

1. What else can be done? There were great attempts of Israel to make peace but they still wanted to destroy Israel, even more than ever. No matter what is done to improve the situation, they always want to destroy. 2. They abuse Israel because they are fueled by toxic ideology, by low and destructive values. There was peace before the October 7 attack. They ruined it. They don't give a fuck about peace, unfortunately. Don't you understand that not everything in life can be explained by logic? That humans are irrational creatures? That not everything in life can be explained by cause and effect? That there is devilry in the world which is fueled by irrational and toxic beliefs which cannot be resolved by tolerating it and giving the other cheek?

Yes lol But better to be 6 than 4. Hamas is the one who always starting the wars with Israel. Yes I am. My perspective and the perspective of other Israelies here is valid. Just because we live here doesn't mean that our perspective isn't valid or 'too biased' to be taken seriously. I will keep to talk enthusiastically about the truth that I see and experience, and gladly share it.

What about the Palestinian refugees in Egypt, Syria, Jordon, Labanon? Or other non Palestinian refugees in the world? Anybody cares about them? Or they are not important enough? 😕

This. If to look at facts rather than bias and imagination we can see that Israel doesn't want wars but peace and safety. Israel wants to be left alone and thrive for the sake of it, like any other western country. While the other side wants to take all of Israel by eliminating everyone in it to build a toxic Islamic state. It doesn't want to develop, evolve spiritually, have a quality life, peace, happiness. It rejects science, human rights, any values which are not Muslim and religious. It could have done that, if it invested the billions poured into Palestine to thrive rather than starting wars. Seems like it only wants to die, kill and destroy. It can't bear the thought of development or evolving. It clings to ill feelings from the past, can't see beyond its hatred and contempt to Israel, Jews, America, the west. Too proud and arrogant, couldn't understand that there is much greater suffering in the world, that there are nations who faced much more brutality than they could ever imagine during the entire human history. That they are themselves the offspring of one of the greatest agressors in the world. And the efforts to compare the Nakba to the Holocaust, are so manipulative and insulting. It wasn't even 1% of the holocaust, or any other real genocide in the history. Yes, it was sad and humiliating, Muslims have pride, I get it, but they are not the first ones loosing their homes and not the last ones, and just because their granny lost his property somewhere in 1948 doesn't mean that they are entitled to kill innocents like ISIS.

850,000,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries. In 1948, their homes were occupied by Muslim Arabs in the middle east and North Africa. Not to mention all the territory and homes Jews lost during the WW2 across Europe. Could they just go and commit terror attacks against innocent Arabs across the middle east? Across Morocco, Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen? Across Europe? Germany, Poland? Could they just go and rape them, burn them and kidnap them? Would that be a legitimate resistance? If Israel doesn't belong to Jews, then these territories across the middle east and Europe which were occupied by Muslims and Christians must belong to them. No? There was a time when their grandparents or great-grandparents lived there, even though they never lived there themselves, but according to the Palestinian logic, it must belong to them if their grandparents used to live there. No? If Jews should leave Israel and Free Palestine 'from the river to the sea' (Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea btw, for those who have no idea what river and what sea) is that mean that the Jewish occupied homes across the middle east, Europe and North Africa should be free too? 🤔

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthi_movement There are Yemeni terrorists who bomb ships with goods coming to Israel. And bomb Israel from the southern side. They are doing that everyday. Their moto is: "Death to America, death to Israel, curse on the Jews and victory to Islam" Same values as... Hamas. They are responsible for the expulsion of the last Jewish families in Yemen. And they are not occupied by Jews. Any excuses to their toxic ideology, antisemitism, anti American agenda, and Muslim superiority agenda?

I get you. You have a common sense and you are able to see the big picture and understand that it's a war of barbaric values against more conscious ones. And you prefer the conscious ones, obviously, because that's how society evolve. You are on the sane spectrum of humanity.

Peace नमस्ते שלום السلام عليكم Мир