cnorhistorian

Quote from Leo I have two apologies to make. I am not one to deny being wrong. I commented on Leo's concept without taking the time to study and understand it. It has been a long time since I have tried to express my position to an "outside" audience and my first attempt was clumsy. I don't know this will be much better. Leo has won a convert - of sorts I think many of his insights are "spot on" I addressed the ultimate question of what we can be certain of in 1965. And I came to Descartes "cogito ergo sum" or the original French "je pense donc je suis". I think therefore I am. The only thing I can be completely sure of is that I exist. Because I think. Or more properly because I am aware. I can accept Leo's position that the perceiver does not exist separate from the perception and that self identity does not exist separate from the perception either. And that the perception itself is a kind of absolute truth. But I don't think that perceiving this is the "ultimate" purpose of life. I don't think that it is even necessary to have this perception to be enlightened. We have the capacity to be aware of being aware. We have a mind - the ability to think. Just because it is cluttered up with all sorts of learned garbage doesn't mean that the mind is useless. It is important to understand that the mind is not a material thing like the body - it is not composed of neutrons and electrons - and the mind is not the brain either. Neither is it located in the brain. The only useful conclusion we can come to is that this perception is - or is a product of - our spirit. And we are not a body having a spirit, we are a spirit having a body. All fields of knowledge tend to interpret life reality as being material. That includes religion. Religious truth is meant to be symbolic because it expresses a reality that is not physical and hence beyond most people's experience. Religious truth is expressed in what Christians would call parables or Leo would call stories. Because spiritual reality cannot be expressed in material terms except symbolically. However the followers and this includes the leaders of religion keep converting it to a physical level. They interpret literally what is meant to be symbolic. My finding in studying world religions is that they are all the same. They remember the messenger and forget or misinterpret the message. So I am spiritual but not religious. I have been to the spirit world. Leo might call that a story and scientists might call it chemicals in my brain. They are entitled to their opinions. I am not going to try to explain my 55 year journey to my concept of enlightenment here but my perception of the purpose of life is that this world is a school for souls. We are here to learn a lesson, to find our "true" selves as it were. And life is not deterministic. We do have free will although that free will is relative. I state my position. I am willing to entertain alternate views but am unlikely to change my basis position. And no, with due respect I don't care if you think I am wrong. And if you have to tell me to "shut the fuck up" I think you are a long way from being enlightened . I can see that in a deluded world there are many who can profit greatly from Leo's videos, courses and forum. I am not one of them. I am not thereby saying that I can't learn things here. I have had a successful life defined in my own terms and I am at peace with myself and the world. I am not struggling with most of the issues on this forum. i find this forum interesting but don't expect to spend much time here. I have a busy life.

@werlight The exact step by step process is that there is no step by step process, at least not a universal one. I can't know what Leo's motivations are but I suspect his extreme claims are a marketing technique. Whether you are trying to sell something or give it away your first task is to get the attention of your target audience. In a world filled with extreme media hype that is very, very hard to do. Extreme claims and swear words are two techniques. I will give Leo credit for going on to say forget the hype. One way of looking at it is that I achieved "enlightenment" in the space of a few minutes in December 1966. Another way of looking at it is that I have spent a lifetime. There are some basics. There is just two steps. The first thing to realize is that the world picture presented by electronic media is crap, it is an illusion created for the purpose of keeping certain people in power and making money for the multinationals. They have defined the purpose of life. Their purpose of life is to consume. They mix up the possession of material goods with happiness. They appeal to your inner desire for success by telling you that in order to be happy you have to have this house in suburbia, this car, this hot tub. People confuse convenience with happiness. So they sign on the dotted line and slave away making other people rich. That is why I say democracy is voluntary slavery. Money and the things it buys gives you conveniences. Conveniences are not happiness. In fact they tend to be the opposite. It is surprisingly easy to manipulate the masses especially when you have electronic media at your disposal. You don't appeal to rationality, you appeal to deep seated instincts and emotions. The human response was not designed for urbanized life. Urbanites have no connection to the planet they live on. Therefore you can convince them to buy and use products (like fossil fuels) that are destroying the planet. They have no concept that if you destroy the ecosystem you destroy the possibility of human life. The planet is not in immediate danger. From all we know it will be around for another 4.5 billion years. The only question is will the human race be along as passengers. The human response is geared to tribal society in close touch with nature. Living in the moment was more common then than now. You looked around your village and there was at least one thing you excelled in. Nobody compares with the air brushed media stars not even the stars themselves. Nobody can achieve these impossible standards so it is necessary to live vicariously though the media. When the sports hero scores a goal it is the man who is scoring the goal, when the heroine is seduced by the tall, dark stranger it is the woman who is being seduced.' My advice is: get a life. The first step is to escape the delusional world of electronic media. The internet is full of extreme claims. Approach them with extreme caution. The second step is to get in touch with yourself. That should not be hard. You were there all along. However that will probably be hard to do because of all the garbage in your head and in your heart. My method was to spend three months by myself in a cabin in northern Ontario twenty miles from the nearest inhabited building. No central heat, no running water, no refrigerator, no electricity hence no radio or TV (the internet did not exist or was even thought of at that time). Just me and my thoughts and perceptions. I have never needed any outside source of entertainment since. The method is very simple. You just have to go inside your head and heart and clean out all the garbage. Just meditating for an hour a day may not do it. You probably need to really get out of the world for a while. Three months (or two years) may not be enough.

@The Son Nowhere did I say that I think I am *better* than anyone else. What I have said is that I am in a *very different place* than *most* participants on this site. Most of the issues on this site are things I resolved *for myself* years ago. I can identify because all those struggles I went through in my time. I *do* have a *peace of mind* and *perspective on life* that I think is very *rare*. That Leo and others on this site seem to think I don't does not bother me. Most have a sort of peace of mind because they have never confronted the issues or even realized that issues exist. A few have come to the realization that there is something very wrong with the consumer society where the multinationals and governments perpetuate delusions and keep the people drugged via the media to their own ends. Often the first reaction is fear. Others have started to confront the issues and are angry and confused - the egos reaction as Leo would put it. When you get to the point where you are ready to confront all this you fall on your face, you pick yourself up and you fall on your face again. It takes persistence. A lot of persistence. And to that I attribute my success. I am not smarter than others I just have an incredible amount of persistence. Just because I have enlightenment in my own terms does not mean I do not have problems. I will not talk about them here because they are personal, I have a handle on them and nobody can help me with them anyway. Why am I here? Because I am on a journey. I do not know everything. In fact I have come to understand how little I know. *A lot*of the things Leo says are very insightful and *some* of the things posted on this site are viewpoints I had not considered before. What can I contribute? I think the main thing I can contribute - if anyone is willing to listen and believe me - is that the objectives of this site are not impossible. I have done it *in my own terms*. You too can do it in your terms. It does not take any special ability except persistence and courage. Hang in there. I wont be around much longer. I am on a sort of holiday right now in Brasil. When I go back to work in Canada I will not have as much internet access and very little time anyway.

Henri: I am not a follower of any particular religion. Points for recognizing the source of the quote. I started studying world religions on my own at 14 that was 1960. There is a lot of wisdom in all of them. I have also studied many mystics. Kalil Gibran is one of my favourites. I have been a follower of several independent religions or sects/denominations in the past. My finding, which I have said here before is that the followers of all religions tend to remember the messenger and forget or misinterpret the message. You can't capture the ocean in a cup. I see the social and spiritual function religions have fulfilled in the past and that they still fulfil. It is one of Leo's paradoxes. The human race has the need to express spiritual truth in the form of social organizations, but the essence of the spirit world cannot be captured in a social or material sense.

Did I say anyplace that I am better than anyone else? Did I say I know everything and have nothing left to learn? Have I not repeated used the words "with due respect" ? I have achieved peace of mind and self actualization in my own terms but it has been a hard road.

This is supposed to be under "enlightenment- intro" but the system won't let me respond there. Amplituda, Leo, Naviy, Galyna, Werlight, Costa You understand the views expressed here are my own. "....they that tread the path of faith, they that thirst for the wine of certitude, must cleanse themselves of all that is earthly - their ears from idle talk, their minds from vain imaginings, their hearts from worldly affections, their eyes from that which perisheth...unless and until [they] cease to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for ...true understanding...The Book of Certitude The process described here does not involve the denial of thought and emotion, integral parts of our makeup, it involves detaching our thoughts and emotions from any learned knowledge or passion (or "story" as Leo would put it ) positive or negative. It does mean getting yourself out of your "head" and "heart" and become aware of being aware. This process is not enlightenment, it is the first step to enlightenment. Once we have cleansed our mind and heart from vain imaginings and feelings it is necessary to use them again from a perspective of "other worldly" understanding. These faculties are an integral part of us; they are part of being human. The thread here seems to miss this. It is all hung up on achieving this detachment and seems to have no concept that this is only a first step and, while it is important of itself and, indeed, necessary, it the understanding of ourselves and the world that we achieve through this that is important. Through this understanding we are able to achieve clarity and peace of mind and are able to make a positive contribution to the world instead of being just another leech on society. And if you have to use strong language and swear words (which is all the rage these days) you are not free of passion and you are a long way from this first step to enlightenment. I have expressed this concept before. So many of the posts on this site show anger and frustration which reflects the anger and frustration in the world especially in western society. My saying is that "democracy" is just voluntary slavery as long as you let yourself be deluded by the multinationals and their hype. Deluding people and fleecing them is remarkably easy. Don't try to do it through reason, all you need is the direct path to their hidden fears. The process that Leo describes I achieved long ago, December 1966, I remember it clearly. With due respect I am way beyond that now

I came across Leo like many other posts on the internet while looking for something else. I am both impressed and unimpressed. There is Leo's paradox. With due modesty I would say I am extremely self enlightened. I am at peace with myself and the world. I have defined the purpose of life - for myself. That is all anyone can do. I can't tell anyone else what the purpose of life is - they have to figure it out for themselves. My answers are not and cannot be their answers. I do not consider myself a follower of any social group nor do I push their viewpoints or interests. I don't follow the values of consumer society. Money can buy conveniences but convenience cannot be confused with happiness. I will jump right in. The human problem is really very simple. It doesn't require long videos or specialized knowledge to understand. The basic issue of the human condition is that the human spirit is in desperate need of absolute answers in a reality where there are no final answers. There you have it. Despite what just about every guru - including maybe Leo - would have you believe. Maybe they will tell you that you have to come to your own conclusion but the best way to get there is their method for which they will charge you money. Of course, they all offer free advice - loss leaders - to get you hooked. In part, it is marketing. People want to be spoon fed and they want to think that you think you have the final answer. Otherwise your product doesn't sell and you can't support yourself. Even if you are not trying to make money, people still need to know that you think you have the final answers or they won't pay attention. This diversion just to show I have a sense of perspective. Back to the topic. This human condition is symbolically described in the Bible story (some would call it myth) of the Garden of Eden. Animals live seem to live in the moment. They don't need to know the "purpose of Life" But as soon as you acquire a spirit that sees beyond the moment and requires an understanding of existence, it is condemned to symbolic "hell" or "spiritual death". Because there are not and never can be absolute or universal answers only relative and personal ones. You have the "hell" of looking for an answer you can never find. That is why religion and self help sites are such an attraction because they can do all or most of the work for you and can provide all the emotional answers so you can feel secure from the unknown and don't have to face the fear of thinking for yourself and facing the unanswerable questions that entails. "Enlightenment" is also very simple. Unless and until you can completely accept that there are no final answers you cannot find true freedom and enlightenment. Although I have "found myself" and understand how the world works, I am a long way from knowing everything. I see this site as one means of furthering my knowledge

Spiritual enlightenment - the most shocking truth you will ever hear I sent Leo a private email. He did not respond. I don't take it personally he is undoubtedly gets thousands of emails. I have already arrived at the "benefits" he describes in his video. *I have peace of mind regardless of the circumstances. *I have emotional maturity * I am totally open minded * I understand that emotional suffering is 100% internal * I understand the true meaning of religion * I am free of the crowd mentality * I think and feel for myself * I have no fear of death I would guess I have invested at least 20,000 hours over the last 55 years and I am not at a destination yet. I must say I was mildly offended when he told me I would experience anger, disbelief etc but I knew his statements to be generic and not directed at me. He shows that he is very sincere in his conclusions and I respect them. Mine are different. I will present the condensed version. It is not that reality exists and I don't, it is that I exist but reality doesn't. At least I have no way of proving that it does. I don't mean that I know I exist physically, but I know, that is can directly perceive, that my thoughts exist and those thoughts are me. That is not a theory, that is direct perception. I am not a physical body having thoughts, it is that I am thoughts having a physical body - maybe. All perception is projected from inside my thoughts - I have no way of knowing if an external reality exists. I can accept that the perception and the perceiver are the same thing There is no truth with a capital T. There is no reality with a capital R. Everything we know or perceive and can know or perceive is relative In my view unless and until I can accept that there are no absolute answers other than that my thoughts exist I can't achieve lasting peace or enlightenment. That is - initially -the most scary viewpoint imaginable.

I have learned from this site. My position is that you are able to learn from everything you encounter. And I express my gratitude. In terms of how to handle relationships and career etc I very much agree with Leo In terms of ultimate knowledge and purpose of life I don't agree and hence i don't agree with the vast majority of people attracted to his site. I have entered some posts but had little response which is not surprising to me because I am not saying what participants on this site want to hear or even anything they can relate to. Almost all the issues on this site are things i dealt with long ago. Not saying I can't learn more but they are no pressing issues for me. I am not saying I am right, but I am right for me. With due modesty but also with confidence I have mastered this life to a much higher degree than those hung up on religion or science or even professional neuroscience. I have made a very postive contribution to my world and have had many people tell me so. Many on this site say that the purpose of enlightenment is not to achieve peace of mind or emotional health. Well I am sorry. My position is that it is. We are in this life to make a difference. That is one of the meanings of "salvation" I agree with Leo that salvation is not something imposed upon you but something you create inside yourself. You create that by knowing that you have made a positive contribution to the world. But you don't achieve that by doing good things so you will be rewarded. It is not possible to have the answer to every question. But by the time you are 69 there should be more answers than questions.

Gayla thank you for your post. No I didn't displace any words. How do I know that "something" exists other than my own awareness? But, like I have said I have been spoiled by 10 years of relating to someone with whom I don't have to spell out every detail, who is capable of reading between the lines and more important willing. I am working on that. But I am not writing a book here either. So I am not going into elaborate detail. The human condition has been described as awareness being aware of itself. If you define that awareness as reality then reality does exist But I didn't specify what I meant which is that I can't prove that "external" reality exists,that is external to my awareness. We see what is inside us. If I am filled with hate then I will see hate in the world, if I am filled with love then I will see love. Heaven and hell are not actual places they exist inside you. Even quantum physics suggests that things don't exist in a fixed form until they are observed. With respect, if you chose to interpret it otherwise that is your choice not mine.

I have had the good fortune of having in my life what I have come to term a "soul partner" We have talked everyday, at least twice a day, for the last 10 years. The few days missed is because we were geographically separated and electronic communication failed. She is the most open minded person I have ever known. Nobody else has her ability to "stand outside" herself and look at personal situations rationally and without undue emotion. Nobody else is as free from the debilitating concepts of society. We have not and do not always agree. But we have agreed to disagree in a respectful and civil manner. Such a relationship has been good and bad. Good in that I have had someone to share my life with and the deepest and sometimes painful levels. Good in that we have supported each others growth. Far better than having a psychiatrist or other "professional" help which is often used just as a crutch because many want someone else to do all the work. You don't have to have a lot of people to connect with. One really close connection is enough and more than most people achieve. Having so many hundred "friends" on facebook might do something for your ego (which gets talked about a lot here) but it doesn't make you happy. It has been bad because it has been sufficient. I have not worked on communicating with a wider circle of people who don't share my fundamental thoughts, beliefs, awareness (whatever terminology makes you happy) THAT is MY next step. I have to learn to express myself without being sloppy about language. Leo has already made me realize that and I thank him for that. It is something for me to work on. However what I see is this site has a lot of angry and frustrated participants who reflect the anger and frustration in society. People who despite telling ME to set aside my thoughts and feelings clearly communicate that THEY think and feel that there is only one concept of enlightenment and that is their concept and that there is only one path and that is their path. In my world,if you have to say "shut the fuck up" you are a long way from inner peace or enlightenment

Dear Leo Thank you for your response Nowhere did I say I had invested 20,000 hours thinking I will accept your clarification. Thank you for correcting that. I readily agree it is not thought that the important thing to know exists, it is awareness. I was putting it in Descartian terms. I have to admit that in trying to express it I was caught in that paradigm. If total awareness in itself creates absolute truth then I will accept that. I would not put it that way. In my search I have had awareness of things that cannot be expressed in language. And if I have failed in raising my awareness to a very high level, as you seem to suggest, how is it that I have achieved all the goals you outline in your video?

The titles for this post should of course been in quotes as they are Leo's words

I can't comment on what Leo says about free will vs determinism. But the concept is very simple. A higher level of awareness can know what a lower level of awareness is going to do without depriving this lower state of awareness of free will. A simplified example. Suppose you give your dog one dish of juicy meat which you know he is crazy for and another dish of something you know he does not like, say vegetables. Which dish is your dog going to chose? Have you in any way deprived your dog of free choice? You can have the free will to choose, but without higher awareness you do not have the ability to choose what you are going to choose.

d1ajax: Thank you for your three reasons for wrong perceptions: false assumptions, failure to see the big picture, missing important detail. Very good. The problem with relying on gurus to find your truth is they can't do it. The doors to wisdom open only from the inside. I think most people - and I am not saying this is true of you - want wisdom delivered to them instantly like fast food. That is why they are willing to pay big bucks for someone to do all the work and give them the all the answers. The philosopher Hegel says "Truth is not a coin that can be pocketed ready made".

The word "ultimate" is just to try to get your attention. There is no ultimate path. Kahlil Gibran writing in "The Prophet" (William Heinemann Ltd, 1926) says " Say not 'I have found the truth', but rather, 'I have found a truth'. Say not 'I have found the path to the soul'. Say rather,'I have found the soul walking on my path'. For the soul walks on all paths" The title "The Seven Mysteries of Life" is from a book by that name. Guy Murchie, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston,1978. These are two of the best books on enlightenment I have found in 55 years of search. The former should be easy to find but the latter is much more detailed (690 pages) and I think might be available only in some large libraries. I am willing to share some of what I have learned from these two books especially the second, and from my own search but only if there is sufficient interest. If there is no interest I am not at a loss for things to do. In terms of the everyday, practical aspects of life, I think Leo has excellent advice. I can see his approach as very useful in an unenlightened self seeking world. However in terms of "ultimate enlightenment" (I am not using the word 'spiritual' yet) my understanding is very different from his. I am not hereby saying that the view is wrong - for him. I am saying there are different interpretations that are found neither in religion nor in science. Some of those interpretations I have learned from enlightened souls. Some of them are my own. With due respect I think I have a unique outlook on life. That is redundant because everybody does. I am at peace with myself and the world. At 69 I have done everything I set out in a life plan at 19, my personal bucket list. And I have found my"ultimate" purpose in life. And it is not conformity, consumerism, disrespect for the environment or violence. That is not to say I don't have challenges. And, having completed my "life plan" I find there are things I left out. And in case you think I am arrogant,even though I have used the words "with due respect", I am in this world to share, but also to learn.

WelcometoReality: Depending which dictionary you use the definition of enlightenment goes something like "having or showing rational and well thought out outlooks" Enlightenment is not a destination. It is a journey. To the extent that you can empty your mind of any and all preconceptions and your emotions of any postive or negative passion and look at your experiences with a pure heart as through the eyes of a child, to that extent are you enlightened.

Dear kalter000: yes we have to stop clinging to those emotionally comforting and secure false models of reality. It is the simplest and hardest thing you will ever do

I have had some requests so I will make the next tentative step. From reading posts and noting which topics are popular I would say I have very different views and I am in a very different stage of my journey than most participants in this forum. That makes sense because those here are attracted by Leo and my ideas about spirituality and where I am is quite different from him. He is quite right. Freedom of speech does not apply to a forum. Its his site and he gets to say what goes and what doesn't That said I don't like labels. I am far from being a "greenhorn" And I am not impressed by the "community reputation " label. Truth is not a popularity contest. I will start with some background. I had a soulmate when I was younger. He died in 1964 when he was 39 and I was 18. I have had councillors tell me it was all in my head that I remembered the good things and forgot the bad. Because they never had the experience they could not tell me what I did and did not experience. We never had even the tiniest disagreement. I have never had that with ANYONE else. We could finish each others sentences. All those things soulmates are reputed to share. It was a life transforming experience because it taught me what is POSSIBLE in human relationships. I didn't realize before he died that the experience was unusual or significant because to me it had always been there. I spent much of the rest of my life looking to recapture that. I never have and don't expect I ever will. However the experience has led me to a few extremely close relationships that I have learned to term "soul partners". I will explain the difference in a future post if we get that far. I have visited the spirit world. Not in my sleep. In waking visions. Was it real? What is real? The world may have an external reality but it has no internal reality save what we project upon it. Psychiatrists tell me it was chemicals in my brain. The question is however: do the chemicals cause the experience or does the experience trigger the chemicals? The experiences were much like that described by mystics. The experiences have in fact been the basis for me understanding existence and making sense of this life. This post is to describe just two of the elements of the experiential basis for my search and what has motivated and enabled me to become "enlightened"

I live part time in Thorold, Ontario, Canada and in Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais, Brasil. Yes Brasil. If you are enlightened, you should at least have enough knowledge and respect to spell addresses correctly.

When I said that understanding the human condition was simple, I did not say it was easy. It is the hardest thing you will ever do.