[Pick-up is a trap.]

@NoSelfSelf Yeah, and being a player basically turns the tables. Only to discover that this 'love' isn't real! 

Notice how almost every self-conscious player has gone through a time-period of being a nice-guy. And that the naturals are actually the most unconscious ones relative to 'love'. 

1 minute ago, Nilsi said:

From a selfish gene/evolutionary biology perspective, the player will inherit his player genes to his offspring, who in turn will pregnate lots of women and inherit their mother's genes to their offspring. So the woman spreads her genes as much as possible, while also having a man that provides for her offspring.

Sounds like a pyramid-scheme. That 'I have value cuz the previous generation said I have value. And they have value cuz their previous generation had value!' 

Because there is a danger, with the player, that he'll cheat. And his resources will go to some other woman's kids! 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@Leo Gura What is the survival-value of 'taming a player'? Wouldn't she be much better off going with a nice-guy, in terms of survival? Cuz he'll be a good provider and stuff. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Unless you plan to stay a virgin, you will have to reach hook-point with any girl you intent to date and marry.

You are acting as though the girl you marry will be attracted via some alternative way. No. She will get attracted in exactly the same way as a girl who sucks your dick in the club bathroom.

It's hook-point in both cases. And the mechanism of hooking for them is based on their definition of 'love', because they're emotional creatures. And they're looking for 'love'. 

It'll change cuz the definition of 'love' will change. 

You talked about their fantasy of 'taming a player'. Guess where that comes from!! 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

All the problems don't get solved once you agree on what 'love' is. But, this does create the possibility of compatibility in love-languages. And you can check for that when you're dating them. 

If you can have compatible love-languages and you can have sexual-compatibility based on that - now that's sustainable in long-term relationship. That's the alternative. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

Another reason I'm talking about this is that pick-up sets up a competitive, sperm-war type dynamic between men. That's only getting worse and worse with time. 

The solution to this problem is for men to not just prioritize a hot woman, to understand compatibility and to help each other find compatible partners. This would be the true role of a 'wing-man', so to speak. 

Think about it - if your desire to get laid came from a genuine sexual desire/attraction, would you prioritize a hot woman, or a sexually compatible one? That's a good one to contemplate. 

And then, you get theories like redpill and hypergamy when you apply economic theory to this, assuming that everyone's out for their own materialistic best-interests and figuring out how to regulate that. And I don't have to tell you the problems with those theories. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@NoSelfSelf There is an abundance of such women in New-Age circles. They want to grow themselves, they want to get there. You just have to be prepared to help them with it. 

Tantric sex can be a huge gateway for them to enlightenment. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@NoSelfSelf Love is Oneness. To love someone is to see that they are You, they are a part of You. As God. 

In the context of women, women who are conscious of this exude a next-level feminine energy. They possess the ability to heal themselves and you! 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@Razard86 Prior to this materialistic day and age, when everyone was religious, it was easier to connect with people, because people believed in the same God, so they more or less agreed on what 'love' is. 

This is the actual reason the rest of society thinks that pick-up is weird and extravagant. Cuz it wasn't needed before people started to dream big, materially. 

The problem with pick-up is that it's primarily materialistic and most of the people doing it don't believe in 'love'. Cuz they're materialistic atheists. This makes relationships meaningless. And you have to rely on shallow techniques to hook the other person. And this makes relationships insecure, fundamentally. 

My solution to this is to date spiritual women, who have a modern, New-Age definition of God. Cuz they're more right about God than the religious people. And vulnerability works to hook them, the same way as 'being a good boy/nice guy' worked to hook them when arranged-marriages were a thing. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@Leo Gura I quote the concept of 'hook-point' as you explained it in your video. That's how I'm using it. 

Having had your experience, where do you think I'm going wrong in understanding this concept? 

In my approaching, this is what I'm supposed to be aiming for, right?! Cuz this is what translates to sex/connection. 

You say 'make 1000 approaches', but what's the goal? Why should I do it, according to you? 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Your mind is just making bullshit excuses to avoid approaching.

Go do 1000 approaches.

Why should any woman love you when you are being such a pussy?

A man who cannot approach does not deserve a woman's love.

Dude, you said this in your 'How to get laid' video. That you gotta hook a woman to have sex. Now, you're saying that's bullshit. 

Aren't you contradicting yourself here? 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All women are attracted to the same stuff. Nothing is stopping you from falling in love with her after she sleeps with you.

But LEEOOO, in order to have sex, you have to hook her, right? And, my issue is with the way pick-up hooks women. And, because a lot of the women in bars and clubs aren't very conscious (they wouldn't be there if they were conscious), the hooking-technique must be manipulative. Employing shallow techniques, like your style, your body-language, etc. 

I don't have a problem with fixing this stuff. My issue is with this being the primary way I'm hooking her. This leads to problems creating rapport. And, I do not see this hooking-technique as sustainable in a long-term relationship. The moment she grows, or her understanding of love deepens, the relationship with me will become toxic, cuz I will have to be avoidant to stay in this manipulative hooking-pattern! And that's how it'll fall apart. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@Raze Rapport flows very easily with them. You can lead them, no problem. 

We, as men, love women's beauty. But, because most women are unconscious, they have self-worth issues, in that they are unable to see their own beauty. This is why women especially will talk a lot about self-love. And that's where the shadow-work comes in. 

When you have this kind of woman, you can hook them by being vulnerable about how you feel about them. And, they'll connect! Then, you can take charge of the masculine/feminine dynamic and take it in the right direction. No manipulation involved. 

In my opinion, this is the correct way to hook a woman to lead to a loving relationship. 

The alternative, though, in pick-up, involves fitting a certain image that women have been conditioned with through movies. Cuz that's their image of 'love'. That's what it takes to hook a woman in a club, for example. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@Loba How do you know that you love someone? 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

3 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

n this case, fear of success in pick-up. Imagine getting the girl that you consider out of your league, and have her be head over heels in love with you. Scary right? That would mean your previous worldview would have to die somehow.

Define 'love'. In your terms and her terms. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@Terell Kirby Come on. You took the one word 'can't' and assumed it's based in fear. 

Let me use a different word. I don't want to do cold-approach. You good now?! 

31 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

I also disagree that you can't find a loving relationship through pick up. Cold approach and social circle begin with a common process: man meets woman, man expresses interest in woman, woman becomes interested through getting insight into mans personality. This is what leads to sex and relationships .. it's just cold approach is the more direct method.

In an ideal world. 

In reality, though, women's conditioning of 'love' will warp and twist their insight into the man's personality. 

This can't work. To have a relationship that's actually loving. I'm not saying you can't get into relationships and get married through this, you can. It just won't be what you hope for. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

@Terell Kirby I've tried pick-up, I figured out how to get to hook-point in different cultures. And when I finally saw what worked, where I currently am, I just got disgusted by the whole thing. Cuz I saw no hope of having a loving relationship through this medium. And I explain my conclusions above as to why that is. 

I would rather be single than waste my time doing this. Sex/mutual masturbation is not worth it. 

In the future, when my lifestyle changes and I have more opportunities, when the logistics are in order, I'll reconsider. When I have access to a better demographic of people. 

The reason I have hope is that I've seen better. And I don't see pick-up getting there any time soon. 

I can't do cold-approach. Social-circle works better for me. 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

5 minutes ago, KH2 said:

The whole concept of "outside my league" is what I'm trying to get rid off though. How is that gonna help me get the high quality woman I'd want to get married with? That's kinda shooting yourself in the foot.

And I'm telling you how you get rid of it. By connecting with them! 

The conditioning relative to 'leagues' comes from your mom, or what 'league' she considered herself to be in. It's similar to conditioning relative to socio-economic status, whether you're poor, middle-class or rich. And you gotta step up your game to get to the higher classes. And before that, you gotta believe that you can get there. 

5 minutes ago, KH2 said:

I don't really personally consider it a W or L, it's just an important experience. That's how I look at it - W-W was just a term I used for clarity.

Alright. Let me put it this way - it was a W-W, but not a W-W-W. Leo talks about the triple-W in his video on Stage Yellow. That's what it'd take to make a relationship work - you'd have to have it be a W for the 'relationship' as a third entity to yourself and her. 

Now, why would it be a 'L' for the relationship, and not a 'W'?! Because manipulation corrodes trust in the relationship. So, you can't trust each other, if you're constantly playing these games! 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

21 minutes ago, KH2 said:

Enlighten me.

The next time, when you see a really beautiful woman who you think is 'out of your league', instead of trying to run from her, try to breathe in her energy. Her feminine energy. And relax with it. Then, you'll experience connection. 

Most of the women who we think are 'out of our league', they actually have the ability to connect with us and heal us. 

It's outside your comfort-zone, cuz men are socialized into not feeling our emotions. 

21 minutes ago, KH2 said:

And how do you know it wasn't a win-win when she was sucking me off? She seemed to enjoy it.

It was a win for her. I'm not so sure about you! Doesn't solve the problem of loneliness. And, you did have to manipulate the situation by changing your behavior, you couldn't be free in your expression. 

If I had to manipulate a woman to get laid, I'd consider that an L for me, not a W. A W would be one in which she's actively participating in the relationship to make it work, it's a two-way street. 

[Pick-up is a trap.]

Pick-up cannot be used as a way to find love. And here's why. 

Most women are conditioned with an idea of 'love' by the movies, by rom-coms. They're looking for 'love' in that form. And, pick-up is the art/science of manipulating that to get laid. 

Even if you marry someone through this dating-strategy, chances are very low that this person will actually love or care about you. Because their idea of 'love' comes from movies. It's not actual love! And you will be stuck trying to continuously manipulate their perception of you, just to continue getting laid with them.

Is this a relationship you want? Where you cannot relax with them, you're on your toes all the time?! The 'companionship' will also be fake, by the way. 

And, on top of that, you will have to meet their exorbitantly high expectations that fit the definition of 'love'. Cuz the reality is that most of the heroes in rom-coms are rich narcissistic guys who the female protagonists are able to 'change', by playing some sort of jealousy-game or something. This is why we have more single guys than ever now, cuz they can't meet these expectations. 

So, what do you do to find love? You seek out women who are also doing some shadow-work and shedding some conditioning, where they're seeing through the illusion of 'love' that they're conditioned with. And they have an experience of actual love through enlightenment-experiences or something. And they are in the actual practice of love! 

And, if you really want to do pick-up, do it only if you're surrounded by unconscious women and you're just horny. It's not a reliable dating-strategy and you will have to progress past it to do genuine dating. 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

5 minutes ago, KH2 said:

By this definition, everything would be considered a manipulation. Come on.

Not if there are explicit expectations from her side, or if you clearly know how to create a win-win with the individual you're talking to. 

What you're trying to tell me is that compatibility can be manipulated. And, my question to that is, how does that solve the issue of loneliness? Are you going to tell me that it has nothing to do with women? Cuz if you think that, let me tell you - you don't know what connection is. 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

3 minutes ago, KH2 said:

You'd are better off not giving a fuck, and just talk to chicks, having fun. Chances are you're going to get your "success rate" much higher than "incorporating female perspective". Not really necessary.

Just be outcome independent, confident and be willing to risk and learn from failures. That's what it comes to at the end of the day.

You are telling me to 'do these things', without any explanations as to why. Why should I believe you when you say this works? Who are you? 

Everybody's zonked out in a club. There is no room for connection at all!! 

How is this a solution to loneliness? I want explanations. Not 'just do this stuff and don't be stuck in your head'. 

Are you even coming from a space of loving and appreciating a woman's beauty?! Is there any emotional investment in this from your side at all? Or is it just a plumbing job?! 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

@something_else I have a lot of experience. And it sucks, honestly. It's not 'fun' for me. I'd much rather have genuine connection. I won't be proud of getting sucked off in those environments anyways. 

13 minutes ago, KH2 said:

You behave a certain way, you get certain outcome.

When you say this, you're saying that they're like an unconscious machine that you manipulate to get laid. 

How is this objectification serving you in relationships? 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

Women are biologically attracted to men and women want sex as much as men do. The crux of the issue here is that most rejections happen due to 'creepiness', or perceptions of it, in women's terms. In PUAs' terms, it's 'bad game'. This is the important gap in perspectives to bridge. 

So, if I were to pick one thing to over-analyze, it would be this topic. 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

23 minutes ago, KH2 said:

A certain minority of women might prioritize connection before raw attraction. That's not a majority (no matter how much anecdotal evidence you might have to refute this claim).

Why is it, then, that when you ask any woman what she wants, she'll say that her priority is connection? Everyone will say that. And why does pick-up tell you that 'you shouldn't take women's advice on how to attract them'? And why is the success-rate so bad, if it's actually that objective about what works to get women? 

Why doesn't pick-up integrate the female perspective? It's very interesting to me, because when you think about it from a business-perspective, it is very important for a marketer/entrepreneur to study their market and what they want. Yeah, fine, what you offer to them might be something that they want and they don't want to admit to. But, how are you going to sell it to them, how are you going to get them to pay you their money for it, if they don't even admit that they want it?! 

[The issue of degeneracy and how it relates to creepiness]

@KH2 If a girl connects with you, she sees you. And if she sees you, she respects you! 

When she isn't connecting with you, what is the 'you' that she's not respecting? That's what she's projecting onto you and disrespecting. That's the 'you' she'll have a relationship with in the future, in fact. Not the real you. So, what's the point of being with someone who can't connect with you? 

I've been with women who can connect with me. No BS shit-tests. You know why? Cuz there is no competition from other guys. Cuz very few guys have the ability to receive it! 

You get the shit-tests when you're being a sheep like every other guy and going to a bar/club. That's when you get competition. And they have no incentive to connect with you. You are just one more drunk guy hitting on them, as far as they can tell. 

Similar issue with dating-apps, to be honest. Don't judge your self-worth by your success/failure in these environments.