mr_engineer

Pick-up cannot be used as a way to find love. And here's why. Most women are conditioned with an idea of 'love' by the movies, by rom-coms. They're looking for 'love' in that form. And, pick-up is the art/science of manipulating that to get laid. Even if you marry someone through this dating-strategy, chances are very low that this person will actually love or care about you. Because their idea of 'love' comes from movies. It's not actual love! And you will be stuck trying to continuously manipulate their perception of you, just to continue getting laid with them. Is this a relationship you want? Where you cannot relax with them, you're on your toes all the time?! The 'companionship' will also be fake, by the way. And, on top of that, you will have to meet their exorbitantly high expectations that fit the definition of 'love'. Cuz the reality is that most of the heroes in rom-coms are rich narcissistic guys who the female protagonists are able to 'change', by playing some sort of jealousy-game or something. This is why we have more single guys than ever now, cuz they can't meet these expectations. So, what do you do to find love? You seek out women who are also doing some shadow-work and shedding some conditioning, where they're seeing through the illusion of 'love' that they're conditioned with. And they have an experience of actual love through enlightenment-experiences or something. And they are in the actual practice of love! And, if you really want to do pick-up, do it only if you're surrounded by unconscious women and you're just horny. It's not a reliable dating-strategy and you will have to progress past it to do genuine dating.

@Globalcollective You can have amazing relationships through pick-up. I'm talking about love, specifically. There can be amazing transactional relationships that you can have through pick-up! One thing that's always turned me off from pick-up is that they never use the word 'love'. It's always demonized, in the context of 'Oneitis' or something. In fact, they don't believe in the existence of love! I have found better ways of doing this, to be honest. Pick-up involves too much bullshit-talk, you can't really get straight to the point. And, I have escaped 'having to do pick-up'. I find that to be a limiting-belief, quite honestly. You can directly connect with her and get laid that way. But, pick-up is too fixated on the 'hottest women' for that. I see another way of doing this and what I'm saying is 'Hey everyone, you don't have to use all of these manipulative techniques to get laid. I understand why you feel the need to do that, cuz you're dealing with unconscious women. But, here's another option, where the women are conscious and they will directly connect with you. It's simpler!'

I don't know if you read my OP. I said that I've seen what works to hook women. That's based on an experience-base of approaching. I'm not saying this as someone who failed to make it work to get laid. I'm saying this as someone who did see how I'm going to get laid using this way and I said 'no' to it. Cuz it doesn't align with my values. Every objection you hear to pick-up isn't from some loser who isn't approaching! The thing is that it is impossible to keep perfect integrity in the face of women who have no trust in you because you're a player and who have impossibly high expectations, which is what the shit-tests communicate. At some point, you gotta break your integrity to get laid.

@Scholar The reason I'm talking to Leo about this is that I have a lot of respect for him as a man. He has a genuinely deep understanding of enlightenment, consciousness, God, love, etc. And, to be very honest, he is one of the few men who understands spirituality and who is talking about a concrete solution to the issue of getting laid. If I talk to some other PUA, they'll throw their own rationalizations of what 'love' is and what 'spirituality' is. That'll be zen-devilry. I don't expect any better from them, to be honest. I can be this honest here cuz this place shows a relatively low tolerance for toxic masculinity and has a certain degree of emphasis on the ethics of getting laid. I'm trying to add to the discussion of ethics, by adding the topic of ethics of finding love to it. Now, if pick-up ends up eating its own tail as a result of it, I gotta talk about it here! Cuz I have nowhere else to talk about it. And this is where you discuss strange-loops.

What I'm hearing is 'you have to be an asshole to prove to her how strong you are. And that's going to be the foundation of your relationship, not love'. That is what I have seen to be the case, in fact, in pick-up. The shit-tests force you to turn into an asshole. Cuz they're fundamentally divisive. And you gotta pick between one bad option and another. I don't even know how you pass those and keep your integrity, to be honest. And, being a provider prevents the shit from hitting the fan! I mean, do they not know what goes into giving masculine containment?!

What happens when your girlfriend that you attract through this process, does some shadow-work, sheds some conditioning from movies, learns what 'love' really is and stops getting attracted in your manipulative ways? You need a different way of doing this than going to bars and clubs. Says who? PUAs?! Your friends? Women at bars and clubs? Feminists? Or your parents? Where does this distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' come from? Another big problem with it is that it conditions you to believe that 'this is wrong with you, this is what you have to improve, therefore, do as we say. Take our 1000-approach bootcamp'. It's a grift, from what I can tell. I mean, I don't see any other reason for something as silly as pick-up to work. It's bullshit social games. That has nothing to do with actual love. What practice?! Other animals don't have to practice this. Even our ancestors didn't. Where did this need to 'practice social-skills' or something even come from?!

@Vrubel 1000 approaches is a lot of work, a big commitment. It is natural for someone being told to do that, to ask 'What's the material incentive? Why will I be doing so much work?' It's like another full-time job, practically speaking.

Also, it makes it so women create this divisive sperm-war between the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. And then, they expect the 'good guys' to protect them from the 'bad guys'. And, the only actual difference between who 'you' are, in their minds, is how you present yourself. What clothes you wear, what you say you believe. And, of course, this illusion falls apart six months into the relationship. The wires have gotten so crossed that they've turned 'being nice' into a bad thing! And then, you have PUAs saying 'Whether she sees you as a 'good guy' or a 'bad guy' is a matter of having good game or bad game'. If you want love, don't stand for this division. Stand for unity! No more jealousy-games, no more flexing your lay-count. I will even go as far as to say that this is the real reason for incel-shootings, not the fact that they're not getting laid in and of itself. If we didn't lionize guys with high lay-counts (which is just a number, anyways), incels wouldn't feel overwhelmed with the pressure to keep up. They would take it easier, and their game would improve just like that. But, well. If you want to win the sperm-war, you're a part of the problem of incel-shootings.

Another point about this - when you wear a leather-jacket, you behave a certain 'confident' way at the club and attract female attention this way and say that they see this as 'survival-value', this speaks to their conditioning from the movies. In the movies, the hero has this confident body-posture and he wears leather-jackets and he's socially confident. And, he's able to fight off the bad guys. And 'rescues her' from them. This conditioning from movies creates this association in women's minds. And, this is what pick-up caters to. As I said in my OP. And this is what cannot translate to actual love. It can resemble 'love' in movie-terms, cuz both of you are playing that character. But, it can't be actual love. Cuz it's based on bullshit, it's not real. Same goes for 'taming a player'. Comes from movies. Real life doesn't work like that! Then, they get disillusioned and ask 'Where are all the good men?!'

Right now, I'm focused on my Life-Purpose. I am using that as a way to shape my authentic personality right now. It aligns with who I am as a man and who I am sexually. Then, when I seriously get to contributing value to the world, I will attract attention to me. Then, when I get female attention, I will be able to convert that. Because my authentic personality will align with the way I survive, the way I make money. I tried this last time. It would've worked, except that I was wrong about my Life-Purpose. This led to a big mental-health crisis for me. I had to expand my understanding of what my Purpose is. And stop dating for a while. Which girls? Talk about what? To what end? Elaborate. There are tons of players who have insecurities about women, mental-health problems, can't keep a relationship. This is what they did. That's my counter-example. And, through my method, through going for people whose definition of 'love' I agree with, I was able to find people who I could genuinely connect and grow with. Now, I haven't gotten laid this way yet, but I can totally see myself getting laid. And, they themselves are in relationships and I see how they work, what it takes to make them work. I learn from their mistakes too.

@DefinitelyNotARobot I understand that some hopes and dreams are getting threatened or crushed right now. I am presenting an alternative, in the New-Age spiritual community. Those women are really intuitive and they understand what 'love' really is. They can 'love'! You just can't get away with manipulating them. Cuz they do shadow-work and they work on their conditioning. So, I want this to serve as a warning to PUAs, about the dangers of this modus operandi of getting laid. And, as far as what they want, they are loud and clear about it. No confusion. Imagine that, for a moment!

I wanted to see whether this forum knew this about pick-up or not. And what your objections would be. And, do keep in mind that pick-up is probably the most mainstream male dating-strategy right now. Especially for young guys. Older men have more money and status that they can leverage. So, in my opinion, it's a pretty important discussion. I needed to know whether I should do this seriously or not and if I do, what am I getting myself into.

This is a strawman. That's vague. It's not concrete enough for me. I need something more concrete than that. I'm talking about problematic patterns that come up when hooking women. Practically. I say this in the OP. You can disagree all you want with my idea of 'love'. Someone asked me what my idea of 'love' is and I answered to them. That's my bias and what I want. It's also an option that people tap into for real. Here's the thing - in unconscious society, men tend to have a male-oriented idea of 'love' whereas women tend to have a more female-oriented idea of 'love'. It's self-biased. My problem with pick-up is that PUAs take the attitude of 'Let's agree to disagree on what 'love' is. I give you what you want, which is your idea of 'love' and you give me what I want, which is my idea of 'love'. (which is sex, really)'. And I don't see this as sustainable long-term, cuz sooner or later, conflict will break out. And the unconsciousness on either side can be problematic. (This explains a lot of 'female drama' in relationships lol) Now, because I am a man, I know what to do about the male side of it. That's what I'm sharing with you here.

I don't see how I'm doing that. Enlighten me.

@_Archangel_ @DefinitelyNotARobot Manipulation is not an absolute evil by any means. However, when it comes to manipulating someone's ideas of 'love', this is where I draw the line. This I find to be very unethical and predatory relative to someone's emotional vulnerabilities. And, it dooms you to loneliness too, because you're going to be alone in the relationship. They are not going to be with you, they're going to be manipulated by you.

I'm asking you for proof because I have counter-examples for what you're saying. And I'm asking you to explain them. For my method, I don't have proof in my own life yet, but I have proof from other people's lives. They've made this work and this is what they said. And this is where I want to go with it.

Can humor keep a relationship together? Or do you need a deeper hook-point than humor? Cuz there is a lot of competition on this front too.

PROVE IT!! 99% of people don't have loving relationships or they don't know what 'love' is. Why is that? They're doing exactly this. Do you know why most parents have kids?! Because they have unmet emotional-needs from their adult relationships. Because they didn't figure this out.

@_Archangel_ Here are my questions - How am I supposed to make someone feel a certain way, without manipulating them? Ultimately, you are the source of all of your feelings and emotions, the causes of them are inside of you. So, the idea is to manipulate their conditioning relative to love, right? What if the 'stimulation'-part, is just another rat-race? The issue with this is that the relationship will have a honeymoon-phase after which both sides will get bored of each other and then the problems will begin. And someone will cheat, cuz there are more options. Especially online. And, if you're constantly running after something else, you will never be present with what you have. How will you access 'love', then?!

@DefinitelyNotARobot But, the point of being nice is to generate the feeling of safety and security! In fact, if you are a player, the shit-tests will practically force you to turn into a narcissistic asshole. Going for a player is a 100% backfiring strategy for women. And, even if you're really good with women, does this necessarily mean you can street-fight off a robber who breaks into your house? Not necessarily. My point being, the player-skills are a poor indicator of how strong a man actually is. And, this is no secret to today's women, quite honestly.

Consider the possibility that social norms have been male-dominated in history. And women haven't had that much of an opportunity to evolve. And if we help them evolve, they could get to a more functional position.

@Nilsi This is assuming that you're conditioning your daughters to repeat the same 'mistakes' (assuming that this is what women go for), right? What if you teach your daughters to 'not go for the scumbag players'? Which is exactly what parents teach their daughters, by the way. Even today. Society generally agrees that too much casual sex is detrimental to it. Even today. My point is, I don't see the 'survival-value' in going for a player. It is something else.

@Nilsi Then why not go for the nice-guy? This was the logic behind the sexual-marketplace regulation before feminism, in fact. This was the logic behind the way religion designed the nuclear family. But, after feminism, this radically changed into what we have today. Which is 'taming the player'. Are you sure this isn't a male projection onto what women actually go for? Cuz if you ask women what they want, they say 'we want love'.

@NoSelfSelf Yeah, and being a player basically turns the tables. Only to discover that this 'love' isn't real! Notice how almost every self-conscious player has gone through a time-period of being a nice-guy. And that the naturals are actually the most unconscious ones relative to 'love'. Sounds like a pyramid-scheme. That 'I have value cuz the previous generation said I have value. And they have value cuz their previous generation had value!' Because there is a danger, with the player, that he'll cheat. And his resources will go to some other woman's kids!

@Leo Gura What is the survival-value of 'taming a player'? Wouldn't she be much better off going with a nice-guy, in terms of survival? Cuz he'll be a good provider and stuff.