mr_engineer

And I'm telling you how you get rid of it. By connecting with them! The conditioning relative to 'leagues' comes from your mom, or what 'league' she considered herself to be in. It's similar to conditioning relative to socio-economic status, whether you're poor, middle-class or rich. And you gotta step up your game to get to the higher classes. And before that, you gotta believe that you can get there. Alright. Let me put it this way - it was a W-W, but not a W-W-W. Leo talks about the triple-W in his video on Stage Yellow. That's what it'd take to make a relationship work - you'd have to have it be a W for the 'relationship' as a third entity to yourself and her. Now, why would it be a 'L' for the relationship, and not a 'W'?! Because manipulation corrodes trust in the relationship. So, you can't trust each other, if you're constantly playing these games!

The next time, when you see a really beautiful woman who you think is 'out of your league', instead of trying to run from her, try to breathe in her energy. Her feminine energy. And relax with it. Then, you'll experience connection. Most of the women who we think are 'out of our league', they actually have the ability to connect with us and heal us. It's outside your comfort-zone, cuz men are socialized into not feeling our emotions. It was a win for her. I'm not so sure about you! Doesn't solve the problem of loneliness. And, you did have to manipulate the situation by changing your behavior, you couldn't be free in your expression. If I had to manipulate a woman to get laid, I'd consider that an L for me, not a W. A W would be one in which she's actively participating in the relationship to make it work, it's a two-way street.

Not if there are explicit expectations from her side, or if you clearly know how to create a win-win with the individual you're talking to. What you're trying to tell me is that compatibility can be manipulated. And, my question to that is, how does that solve the issue of loneliness? Are you going to tell me that it has nothing to do with women? Cuz if you think that, let me tell you - you don't know what connection is.

You are telling me to 'do these things', without any explanations as to why. Why should I believe you when you say this works? Who are you? Everybody's zonked out in a club. There is no room for connection at all!! How is this a solution to loneliness? I want explanations. Not 'just do this stuff and don't be stuck in your head'. Are you even coming from a space of loving and appreciating a woman's beauty?! Is there any emotional investment in this from your side at all? Or is it just a plumbing job?!

@something_else I have a lot of experience. And it sucks, honestly. It's not 'fun' for me. I'd much rather have genuine connection. I won't be proud of getting sucked off in those environments anyways. When you say this, you're saying that they're like an unconscious machine that you manipulate to get laid. How is this objectification serving you in relationships?

Women are biologically attracted to men and women want sex as much as men do. The crux of the issue here is that most rejections happen due to 'creepiness', or perceptions of it, in women's terms. In PUAs' terms, it's 'bad game'. This is the important gap in perspectives to bridge. So, if I were to pick one thing to over-analyze, it would be this topic.

Why is it, then, that when you ask any woman what she wants, she'll say that her priority is connection? Everyone will say that. And why does pick-up tell you that 'you shouldn't take women's advice on how to attract them'? And why is the success-rate so bad, if it's actually that objective about what works to get women? Why doesn't pick-up integrate the female perspective? It's very interesting to me, because when you think about it from a business-perspective, it is very important for a marketer/entrepreneur to study their market and what they want. Yeah, fine, what you offer to them might be something that they want and they don't want to admit to. But, how are you going to sell it to them, how are you going to get them to pay you their money for it, if they don't even admit that they want it?!

@KH2 If a girl connects with you, she sees you. And if she sees you, she respects you! When she isn't connecting with you, what is the 'you' that she's not respecting? That's what she's projecting onto you and disrespecting. That's the 'you' she'll have a relationship with in the future, in fact. Not the real you. So, what's the point of being with someone who can't connect with you? I've been with women who can connect with me. No BS shit-tests. You know why? Cuz there is no competition from other guys. Cuz very few guys have the ability to receive it! You get the shit-tests when you're being a sheep like every other guy and going to a bar/club. That's when you get competition. And they have no incentive to connect with you. You are just one more drunk guy hitting on them, as far as they can tell. Similar issue with dating-apps, to be honest. Don't judge your self-worth by your success/failure in these environments.

@something_else Then why do they have 10,000 shit-tests? Someone who can genuinely connect with you won't have to do that. You honestly think that women can connect with you in a dingy bar/club, down a couple drinks?! Come on. Let's get real.

@something_else In the club, you will not have rapport with most girls, because they won't have that ability to connect with you. Because they themselves are not in touch with their femininity. When they can connect with you, vulnerability is it. I mean, fine, you could want to get into her pants because of how she looks. But, will that really fulfil you?! I personally don't prefer that, cuz it sets up problematic patterns for having relationship in the future. Also, if you don't have genuine rapport/connection, you'll have to use a different strategy to hook them that's more manipulative. My answer was for the kind of woman that I want, which is someone who is genuinely feminine. I don't bother with most club-girls. The situation may be different on that front.

@something_else It's Vulnerability. This is the answer to the question 'How do you hook women?'. That is one piece of the attraction-puzzle. Incels exist because they don't have the balls to do this. Because their attachment-style is avoidant. I'm not saying that doing it is easy. It's not. But, as theoretical knowledge, it's clear enough to me that you gotta know this if I'm gonna believe your attraction-advice.

@something_else What if I told you that I had the answer to this question, in one word? Would you be open to it? This applies especially to the conscious, New-Age feminine women. I will tell you, all you have to do is ask.

The whole idea behind the point of 'don't ask women for dating-advice, only ask the guys who've done thousands of approaches', is that, the guys who have done it know how to hook women, when the women themselves don't. That's the only real difference. This is the value of a pick-up coach. Everything else is normal self-help stuff. If you know how a woman hooks, just directly tell me. I'd much rather have that, than the 'Let me set number-goals for you, let me hold you accountable', stuff. When guys ask you 'What's the good opener for me to use?! What exactly do I say to her?!' etc., this is what they're really asking you to tell them!! What hooks women?! I can understand you being critical of the attitude of 'wanting the right opener', cuz that doesn't exist, but this is what you're being asked for. And you gotta understand that.

@something_else Do you know how women hook? You're gonna have to convince me of that to get me to believe your framework. What's the proof for your framework? I'm being asked to make thousands of approaches. It's too big a commitment for me to make, if it doesn't make sense to me.

It is unbelievable to me that nobody wants to figure out how this works. Utterly remarkable. And when you try to do that, you get told that 'you're stuck in your head'. Unreal. If you don't know what makes women tick, how are you going to hook them?! Hooking is everything with women.

@something_else Yeah, but there are no instructors here. Most of the instructors are self-biased and you gotta create your own manual. Now what? Imagine that the car is this mysterious black-box and you have to figure out how it works all by yourself, with no one helping you and everyone just saying 'The car just magically starts when you turn the key, it just magically goes forward when you push the accelerator', without having a framework of Physics behind it. And then telling you 'Why do you have to figure out how the car works?! Just drive it!! Don't worry about breakdowns, just go find another car! Yeah, you gotta work hard and save up to buy a new one, but we don't know or care about how cars work, that's too much theory/science. So, just do what all of us are doing here, which is to throw away a car that doesn't work, cuz we don't understand how it works'.

@something_else That's like saying 'Go drive a car without learning what the accelerator and brake is. That theory is the distraction. Just look at what other drivers do and do exactly that!' Am I right?

In theory, yes. In practice, though, every individual woman is going to have a different definition of masculine 'strength', depending on the kind of role she'd want a romantic partner to play in her life. And this is going to be decided by her level of intellect and self-awareness. For example, a lot of women who had assholes for daddies, their definition of 'strength', might be his ruthlessness. Or his willingness to say whatever is on his mind no matter how it makes the other person feel. And they picture themselves to be able to 'love them' enough to not be on the receiving end of that, while other people who she wants to be protected from, will be! So, this is what she'll subconsciously seek out. And, if a guy is being really PC and mindful of how others feel, she'll see that as 'weak'. Is this a smart woman or a dumb woman?! And would you want to be with such a person?

@hoodrow trillson So, the way to not be a creep is to be stupid and impulsive, right? Is that what you're saying? My kind of woman, a smart one, would be creeped out by that. I think that a dumb woman would be creeped out/intimidated by a smart guy.

What do you want me to do, then?! Just 'act on my impulses'?! My assessment tells me that that's the way to be creepy. If it were that simple, we would not be disagreeing here! I'm telling you, it's not. Well, I do care. And I think it's dumb to not care. If you're telling me that they don't care about being labelled as 'creepy', no amount of success with women is going to repair the damage to your reputation that comes from that. Also, it's really hard without figuring this out.

@Optimized Life The issue is that Leo doesn't talk about social-circle. And pick-up is just too hard unnecessarily. Thousands of approaches?! Seriously?! Do it if you're up for it, I'm not. I have more important things to do with my life than spend thousands of hours chasing vagina, as Leo said in his video critiquing pick-up. If you want to do cold-approach, Leo's advice might work for you. I don't know, cuz I just don't want to do it. My point with Hamza is that he genuinely understands the issue of social responsibility. It's not your stereotypical alpha-male stuff, it is genuine advice on how to have friends in your life.

@Optimized Life I guess I'm just dumb, then. It's never been simple or obvious to me. It's highly subjective, in fact. And I find it important to make sense of the context. A lot of times, some behavior will be 'creepy' in one context and completely fine in another context. How do you tell the difference? What's the calculus behind that? Not so simple. I'm looking for the exact root-cause in the behavior of a 'creep' that causes resistance in hooking a woman. This is important for the long-term too.

A limit of this guy's teachings - He has no clue about how to make a romantic-relationship work. He is really amazing and legit when it comes to teaching about masculinity and self-improvement. And his dating-advice is 100% ethical, his advice on making male friendships work is 100% ethical. He's just limited in the context of romantic-relationship. That's it.

@Someone here Are you from India?! I will let you in on a little secret about Indian women - style is everything for them. Wear a leather-jacket, nice shoes, a nice belt, maybe a shirt. Try to look as cool and rich as you can. The female attention you'll get will skyrocket! You can insta-hook half the women in the room if you just do this. The concept of 'leagues' is huge in India. If you're dressed like an average guy and the hottest woman in the room is dressed in a nice dress, the consensus will agree that 'she's out of your league'. But, when you dress stylishly, you're bridging this 'gap in leagues', so to speak. Then, all of a sudden, your status in the room will go up and the hot woman will see you as 'on her level', so to speak. Then she'll pay attention! It'll almost be relatable to her, because she'll see someone who cares about how you present yourself. If you say it's shallow, I'll admit that it is. I'm not a big fan of it and I want to get out of here, quite honestly. But, if you just want to get laid, this is how you do it.

@KH2 Yeah, but he's not a big fan of 'cold-approach'. He built his own friend-circle from the ground-up in his second year university. And, the club-thing is how guys in their late teens/early twenties socialize! That's the age-group that clubs target.