mr_engineer

Leo has said in the past that 'don't use the boyfriend frame, use the player-frame, cuz the boyfriend-frame will get you friendzoned'. Here's what I've observed - the boyfriend-frame gets you friendzoned with women who are very transactional in the way they deal with men. These women have a bright red line between 'men who are friends' and 'men who they sleep with' with no overlap between the two. If you adopt the player-frame with them, yes, they will see you as attractive and probably sleep with you. But, in the future, they will use sex as a manipulation to get you to commit to them. Whereas, the guys who are willing to commit are going to use the boyfriend-frame, because that's what commitment looks like! But, because they don't know what commitment looks like, the one with the boyfriend-frame goes into the friendzone. So, how do you vet them? Go with the boyfriend-frame. If she friendzones you, she's not worth your time. And, one final point about this - it does work with women who know what 'love' is and who know what they're looking for in a man. If you get close enough with such a person, things must go in a sexual direction. But, this time, in the context of relationship, not in the context of a one-off transaction.

And I'm not talking about getting laid here. Or getting into a relationship. I'm talking about finding a compatible person to begin with. Then we talk about this other stuff. In case there is a lack of clarity relative to the problem-statement of this thread, I want to clear that up. And, there is also a big difference between intimacy and having a relationship. Arranged-marriages are not intimate, for example. There can be a big discrepancy between their personalities. The point of dating is to find love. Otherwise, there are plenty of relationships where the transactions could work, but the people can't stand each other for a second.

In that case, he misinterpreted what I was saying. Which is that from an intimacy-standpoint, if you're friendzoned, with transactional women, you're on the good side of the red line. But, from a sex-standpoint, you're on the bad side. Because the red line separates those she has intimacy with from those she has sex with. The point of doing it like this, is to be transactional with those who she has sex with. This thread is about a red-flag that incompatible women, women who don't know what love and intimacy are, women who are purely transactional, will exhibit. And how to vet them out. Everyone is not in the rat-race to get laid. I would much rather evaluate compatibility before running in this race. This is simply not the case. There can, in fact, be intimacy with female friends. Because intimacy is not sex. The reality is that intimacy is not the same as sex. It is a bias of the male ego to assume that they are the same. They're not. Ask any woman.

@Leo Gura Then how do you explain the phenomenon in which she has a toxic relationship and she opens up to her guy-friends about it? Guys who she has friendzoned?

@Leo Gura On the one hand, you say that 'most women have a bright red line between guys they're friends with and guys they're sleeping with', in response to me saying that 'the women who have this line are transactional'. On the other hand, you're saying that 'they will naturally open up more to guys they're sleeping with'. This negates the first statement that you made, right?! Where did the bright red line go, if she opens up to guys who she's sleeping with?! And, why would she need other guys who she friendzones and complains to about her toxic relationship if she didn't have this bright red line, if she could open up to her boyfriend?!

@Leo Gura How can there be love in a relationship, if your girlfriend has other guy-friends she's talking to about stuff she can't talk to you about, just because she's fucking you and she wants to keep the transaction alive? The issue isn't about attracting them. You are right about that. The issue is having a high-quality relationship. There, these player-patterns can fuck up the relationship completely. Is my point.

The most important principle is - Frame is everything. When women talk about you as a man, they're talking about your frame. The reason assholes do well with women, even though they're morons who are irresponsible and reckless, objectively, is that they're more willing to fight. And, this gives them a 'strong frame' with women. Whereas, being a nice guy gives you a 'weak frame', even if you're objectively a stronger, more responsible person. Most women's conception of 'strength' is shallow. Because their agenda is to compare their options and to choose the best one. So, in their minds, they're comparing your frames. This is why being aggressive works with women. This is also why most relationships are not loving. Because both sides aren't seeing each other for who they are. So, if you want a loving relationship, here's what you do in order : the first thing you do is you become more self-aware, self-loving and see yourself for who you are. The next step is that you learn about women, sober yourself relative to them and you see them for who they are. This will show you the different types of women out there and it'll give you a sample size to pick from. The next step is to figure out what compatibility looks like and to figure out how to vet these women for compatibility. This is your 'dating-strategy', so to speak. This will fully incorporate your truth of what you want. And this is where you construct your vision for the type of relationship you want, based on reality. Then, the next step is to figure out how to embody your authenticity/integrity so that you know how to put yourself out there and how to show up for women. Women have different roles for you and when you show up for the ones with the right roles for you, you can show yourself as 'compatible' to them. This is your opportunity to create win-wins with them. (Analogous to the 'product-market fit' concept in business) This will also give you an idea of what it means to 'get ready for long-term relationship' Then, you go on monk-mode and prepare yourself for long-term relationship. It will be very tempting to use your existing SMV to indulge in casual sex. But, this will be a distraction if what you want is a long-term relationship. So, no dating until you're ready. Then, finally, when you're ready, you hard-screen women for compatibility and you rationally evaluate your options before you decide whom to commit to. This is where it will be important to not settle and to pick the best option that's right for you.

It can be conscious if you're doing something about the corruptions of porn and if you genuinely are meeting a need for someone (the viewers, the actors, the make-up artists, someone) that nobody else is meeting.

Have hobbies that interest you, that you're passionate about. Then, you can consider going full-time in some of them later on. It is these things in your personal-life that will drive your decision-making process in your professional-life.

There is a Bruce Lee quote that's one of my favorites - 'I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times'. If I were in your position, I would spend my 50 grand exploring things that I'm interested in, figuring out what that 'one kick' is for me and then practicing it 10,000 times. Then, your future is set!

And you can't make LAND out of thin air. The amount of land itself is finite.

@The alchemist I'd suggest you help people one on one first. That'll pay decently. Then, as you keep growing and you find patterns emerging, where you're dealing with the same problems for 10-20 people a day, that's when you go on social-media. Cuz that's when you know what thousands and millions of people need to know, that's when you get the hits on social-media.

I have an idea that I don't have the time or patience to execute on, but it's a very good idea. It's for an attachment-relationship healing-center. You learn in depth about human psychology, emotional-needs and attachment-styles. And, you spend a couple years designing your own healing-modalities for it. Then, you systematize it and you start an attachment-relationship healing-center. It is the need of the hour. Countless people need it, you will have waiting-lines. And you will change the landscape of relationships forever, you will set the foundation for a world that's truly communal. You will find ways around the constraints of the single-family home and give children better upbringings. The reason I'm not doing it myself is that I don't have a product-market fit for this idea. I have better product-market fits for other ideas that I'm working on. If you've got it, please, go for it!! Consider what I'm saying as a green signal.

Ah, I see. Here, in India, from what I know, the legal process of giving a birth-certificate involves giving the government a marriage-certificate. Then, they certify you as the 'child' of these 'parents' who are legally proven to be 'married'. It's all a scam, honestly.

@something_else The logic behind marriage is to have the option to get the government's help in the event that you have a child and your partner becomes abusive or something. Then, the government can hold them accountable as the parent of your child.

@Kalki Avatar Raise your standards for women. Look at her character-flaws that made her act like that. She basically acted like a low-quality person. Figure out why she did that, then look into whether you missed red-flags before making the decision to emotionally open up to her. Maybe you didn't know that those are red-flags, but now you do. So, next time, when you're interested in someone who doesn't have those red-flags, the logically right thing to do will be to give her the benefit of the doubt, that she won't hurt you. This is how you solve the problem of you closing up. Now, if she wants to work on her reasons for being egotistical (cuz that's what we're really talking about here), give her a second chance. If she doesn't do that, let her go.

@Leo Gura What do you think of the debate of Austrian economics vs Keynesian economics? What's your take on that debate?

If I look at her as critically as I can, what comes to mind is that she's an ideologue. That's it. I don't see what's dangerous about that. You are free to follow her or not. And, about the fear of regressing to Stage Blue - keep in mind that Stage Blue is a foundation on which the other stages come. After religion loses its hold on society, there has to come a new ideology that tells parents how to be good parents, right?! And that basically teaches young people the best way to find their way to a secure relationship. You are free to debate the level of counter-productivity of the hook-up culture on this front.

Yeah, I've lived in the US for a couple of years. I totally understand. If I'd lived in New York City or something, I would not have been happy with the situation, by any means. But, I lived in one of the most progressive, spiritually endowed cities of the US. One of the most Stage Green cities. And, it was amazing, to say the least. I learned that there is a lot more to relationships than what meets the eye. I was able to break out of materialism in the context of relationship, where it's all about cool clothes and sunglasses and hairstyles and stuff. (If you're working on that stuff to look cool, you're ahead of the curve in a Stage Blue culture. So, by doing that, I was already pushing past the center of gravity here.) And, I was able to construct a vision for my relationship-life in which there is true love. It's not about material compromise (Stage Blue) or just getting laid (Stage Orange). The important thing is to get knowledge about relationships that's outside the traditional structure. And to meet people who have actual relationship-wisdom. I, personally, value that very highly. Which is why I would rather move to a country whose center of gravity is at Orange and which has certain Stage Green, New-Age hippie pockets. Now, there are Stage Green people here too. So, I'm not being racist here and saying that these cultures have no hope at all. There is hope, there is a trajectory forward for them. The thing is that the Stage Green people are very few and far between. There are some SJWs here reacting to toxic Orange behavior, or abuses of power by big CEOs. But, they're very few. I can count them on one hand. And, they're being drowned out by the materialistic horde. They have no impact to speak of, no offense to them.

In the past couple of years, India is officially stepping foot in the door of Stage Orange. The hook-up culture is being declared to be normalized, by the movies that are getting released. (Movies dictate culture here) And, do you know what the overwhelming message is?! 'Love is an illusion'. 'Love doesn't exist'. 'Love is what you define it to be'. The materialism of this culture is not going away any time soon. People are not becoming self-aware, conscious of their real motivations behind entering and keeping relationships any time soon. Most youngsters are running away from commitment entirely, because on the other side, is a traditional structure of marriage that they have no knowledge outside of. The culture is becoming more and more decadent, in a nutshell. It's going to get much worse before it'll get better. I'm not looking forward to the debasement of the culture, as it enters Stage Orange, if I'm honest. I'm not a big fan of the culture at Stage Blue either, but the pendulum-swing is also not coming from a very conscious place.

@Jacob Morres Where do you live? What do you know about how bad it is? I'm quoting people who have any knowledge about what it takes to make a long-term relationship work here. Not the morons who are in clubs and kissing random girls.

And these are not safe countries for women. If you do commit to a woman here, protecting her is its own headache. It's way simpler to just leave and date elsewhere.

And what incentive do they have to tell me the truth? The competition here is ruthless, because there is a severe shortage of people who are open-minded to dating. Cuz arranged-marriage is the norm. I have zero trust in people who are high Blue, low Orange here. They lie through their fucking teeth, they're scammers who will do anything for immediate profit.

@Jacob Morres Even the Taliban uses Twitter. This doesn't mean that they're highly developed people, right?! Similarly, just cuz you have nightclubs in some part of the country, doesn't mean that the people there are more developed. I mean, fine, it's possible, in theory. It's just not advisable in practice. Or rather, do it at your own risk. If something goes terribly wrong, you were warned.

Now, I'm going to tell you why I personally am in favor of leaving a Stage Blue country. Women here can be broadly classified into two categories. The first one is the traditionally minded woman. She will dress modestly, she will embody the cultural archetype of femininity. She will be your stereotypical 'good girl'. She will be sexually repressed. And, she will either be totally closed off to dating, wanting an arranged-marriage, or she will test the hell out of whoever approaches her for a date. You have to have a lot of patience to win her over. Also, her family/community probably has so much control over her life that she probably just won't be able to have a dating-life, unless you're very rich. The second one is the 'modern woman'. These women tend to be on the hotter side. The catch with them is that they are very feminist. Aka, they despise men. Making something work with them will be a pain in the ass, at the very least. They will be very controlling and the relationships with them will be loose. Now, if you are not emotionally investing in the relationships, things could work with them. These are the guys who tend to get them, the 'nice guys' who want a loving relationship lose out with them. You have to be a cold and heartless bastard to get them. The thing is that if you date a bunch of these women, you will go through a lot of heartbreak. There will be severe highs and lows in your dating-life as a result of this. Because commitment with a feminist woman will not be very strong. Cuz 'equality'! And 'independence'. Now, I have more sympathy for the feminist women here. Because there are very real women's rights issues here. When a white woman talks about the patriarchy, it sounds like 'first-world problems' compared to when a woman here talks about the patriarchy. The whole thing about 'manspreading, mansplaining' is laughable (TW for the snowflakes) compared to the actual issues of women here not being allowed to go to school or work because their family/community is very regressive and religious. And dowry, of course. The pay-gaps are also pretty bad. Now, why am I not very hopeful here?! Because neither of these categories of women actually knows themselves and what they want. Neither of them are thinking about compatibility. There isn't a lot of relationship-wisdom here. This poses a serious issue for the long-term sex-life of the relationship, to put it tangibly. This is Stage Blue life. It's a pre-individualistic society. This is why I'm looking to leave this place, specifically to have a better romantic life.