mr_engineer

And what is the point of partying/going to bars/clubs? Is it to make friends? Is it to 'have fun'? Is it to meet women? What is the point of it? A 'party' in today's world, is a marketplace. Where people show off how 'cool'/'fun' they are. They will do whatever it takes to lower inhibitions and 'put their best foot forward', like taking drugs/alcohol. The goal is to be 'cool'/'social'/'charismatic' and when you do that, you gain popularity/'status'. This is why bar-fights happen. Cuz inhibitions are lowered and when your so-called 'status' is on the line, you will get aggressive to protect it. Another definition of a 'party' in today's world, is that it is a hub of instant-gratification activities. Where the point of going there is not to make friends (most people only leave the party with the friends they went in with), it is to indulge in the instant-gratification activities like loud music, drugs, alcohol, the sight of hot women as eye-candy and casual sex. Can you form connections in parties, which are the most popular so-called 'social environments' in Western-style civilizations? Absolutely fucking not. People are there to tune out the problems of their lives and drown out their internal problems, because of which there is little to no authenticity in those environments. Even though on the surface people are having fun, there is often an inexplicable tension in the environment. Because people are using substances to repress their internal issues. And finally, about the women. A lot of them have issues that they're tuning out too! Cuz they're there, getting drunk and putting themselves out there to be sexually objectified, to 'lower inhibitions'. We're talking about boundary-issues, codependency, indulgence in instant-gratification promiscuity showing a lack of discipline etc. And, the worst part about this is that there is no connection with someone who is inebriated. It's just not going to happen. Connection happens in the fully sober, waking state. Not when you're dancing even after the music stops. This is the height of life in the modern world. Which is incredibly sad. Because it weakens people. This is what today's young people are obsessing over. It is a degradation of the values that our societies have been built on, it is degeneracy and decadence. (I'm not saying that it's morally wrong for you personally to party if you find it fun, but from a macro-perspective, if this is the most popular social-environment of your culture, that's pretty fucked) Too many people don't know what they're missing out on, what life could be like without these vices, in which you actually get to connect with each other when you're sober. If today's youth considers the state of being high and intoxicated and 'getting fucked up' as the 'height of life', if they're unhappy with their lives when they're sober and they think that this is the solution, does this bode well for the future?

@universe The serious point that I'm making is that we need to stop pussy-footing around this collective issue of loneliness and we need to become more sophisticated in our understanding of it and what the real solutions are, what doesn't work vs what actually works. It becomes particularly hopeless for successful people who believe that 'partying is the height of life'. When they become disillusioned with it, they kill themselves. Because what they experience is loneliness in a room full of people 'having fun' with them. This is not an accident. This is not a bug of the party-environment, it's a feature. This is literally what the people there are coping with. I believe that we must question this notion that 'partying is the height of life'. Because if we find alternative ways to connect with people, a lot of money that goes into the extravagance of partying will get saved. And, life in the West will become a lot less competitive. Honestly, the West has been rich enough for around 20-30 years for the rat-race to just stop. People are still running, though, because they believe this lie. Entire economic reforms are on hold because of this lie. Most of Wall-street believes this lie, most of the shit they do is for this reason. Most corrupt CEOs and presidents believe this lie. Inflation in the West will greatly reduce if not completely stop if people stop believing this lie. Entire economies can get saved if people stop believing this lie. A lot of people's status-obsession stems from here. Whether they're rich, poor or middle-class. But, if they see through this, they will stop caring about status and they will just follow their passion and find their Life-Purpose. The entire world will see a new level of evolution.

Before then, I'd been to bars and clubs, just because it was the most popular social environment. I didn't know what to do there, I felt lonely there, so I came back. Then, when I went with friends, I saw what they do and I was like 'screw this, it's not worth it'. And besides this, I never really understood the fundamental principle behind partying as a way to connect with people. Until, I heard someone say 'the people you meet in parties are not your friends, you just go there to gain popularity, offline and online (Insta-stories and shit)'. Then, it made sense why people do it and what the cultural blindspot is! There are a lot of healthier ways of meeting people, like going to the gym, art-classes, sports-clubs. In fact, there are dedicated SD Green environments in which they do spiritual rituals and stuff and you can connect much better with people there.

This thread is not about me or my 'issues with connecting with and meeting people'. I have other ways of doing that. My point is that partying is by far the worst way to meet and connect with people. Fine, 'if one person on the planet made connections at a party, it should be possible for anyone'. But, it's one thing for it to be possible, and it's another thing for it to be probable. The probability is very low, because of the factors I listed in the OP. And, if that's the most popular type of social environment in upscale areas of the world. we're in trouble. Looking at this trend on a macro-level should scare you. If you're defending parties as a way to meet people, that comes across as 'fearful and lacking' to me, actually. There are much better ways, like going to art-classes, going to dance-classes, going to music-classes. People aren't numbing themselves with substances and they're exploring their creativity in these environments.

@Sidra khan @Princess Arabia Looks like I lost this 'status-game'. No worries. I've got other plans.

Once, when I was talking about my mental-health issues/loneliness, my friends said 'let's go party!' and dragged me into a club. The music was really loud, pretty much everyone was inebriated and dancing to the loud music, in the zone. No scope to talk to anyone. One of my friends got drunk and passed out. She was puking a lot. The rest of us were left taking care of her. Some of us were being responsible with it, some not so responsible. She was disoriented and one guy was messing with her head on purpose, taking advantage of the fact that she was disoriented. It made me lose respect for him for the rest of my life. My opinion of him is 'he's the biggest scumbag I've ever met'. We were 'bar-hopping', so to speak. So, we went to another club. One of my friends had a wing with a lot of contacts in these places. He was one of the 'big and strong alpha-males' there. There were drugs going on in the next club. And, there were dealers there. Shady characters. Two guys got into a fight over drug-money. And, my friend's wing went in there to pacify the situation and resolve it. This happened in the US. 1 year into living there. And, I'd already observed that most of American society revolves around materialistic pleasure. And that partying was supposed to be the 'height of life' there. And, when I saw this, I was like 'Oh man. The West is in trouble, if this is what the people here are living for'.

When a drunk man and a drunk woman have sex, who has more to lose? The woman, of course. So, the issue here is of women's safety. When this is the situation, you can complain all you want about the lack of sexual-discipline of drunk men (what an expectation to have from a drunk man lol), but nothing is going to get done about this if women don't take responsibility for their own safety and change something! It's one thing to say that 'In an ideal world, men would be perfect and men would be perfectly held accountable for all wrongdoings' and it's another thing to face the reality that that's not how the world works. Yes, women have more of a responsibility to stay sober so that they can protect themselves. Because women have more to lose in drunk sex. Also, if a feminist said it, take it with a grain of salt. Ancient Rome. https://www.historyhit.com/the-fall-of-the-roman-empire/

My issue isn't with the partying itself, it's with this false belief that it's the height of life. Because it makes it so everyone aspires to live it and we get the never-ending competitive rat-race. When a society believes that a party is the height of life, the danger of that is that the vices that come with partying will weaken and destroy it from within. There are pros and cons to partying and when we idealize it as the height of life, we don't look at the cons.

The reason I'm being logical about this is that if you're not, people come up with problematic rationalizations for partying. Seems benign at first, until you get to a point where partying becomes the only escape from the problems of your life and then those rationalizations will hold you back from quitting the vices that the party-lifestyle imposes on you. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying that we need to see the reality of it and that it's not the height of life. That we can do better, collectively. I don't see how the collective moves towards being enlightened if we stay stuck here.

Are you going to give counter-examples to what I've said?

The problem at hand is social confidence at a party. I mean, if it helps your social confidence, why not learn to dance? That's what people are doing there, right?! Why not just get good at it, be the coolest person there and reap the rewards of that?! It's fun when you know how to dance. And it's even more fun when you're better than the others around you! It gives you an advantage in 'coolness'.

Take a dance-class. Just brute-force the solution to this problem. You will be a lot better than the suckers who are 'just flowing with the music' and more socially confident than them. A party is literally a competition for who's the coolest person there. And you do whatever it takes to win this competition. If a dance-class is what it takes, go for it.

I'm looking at it from a biased perspective of 'Can I form connections in a party? If I can't, if we can't, why is it the most popular type of social environment? How does it benefit us as a collective to have it be the most popular type of social environment?' I personally can't help but feel contempt for people who get so drunk they pass out in parties, or people who overdose on drugs in them. A part of me is like 'We all know that you're better than this'. Another part of me sees that this urge to get high to the point of blacking out is a deeper issue of having the urge to self-harm, because they're using partying to cope with the meaninglessness of their lives.

I call BS on this argument that they would make. Because, if this really were who they are, why does it do nothing for their mental-health problems?! Mental-health in more developed parts of the world (I'm not going to name countries, it's happening in upscale areas of most countries) is tanking on the one hand and on the other hand, this is the social reality we're dealing with. The first indication of the fact that you're on the right path with authenticity is that your mind will be peaceful and emotionally you will be fulfilled. I mean, they know that they're going and being sexy in a low-inhibition environment, where drunk guys are going to be drooling over them and some guys with little to no morality are going to be trying to spike their drinks and shit. I want to get on the same page with others about what a 'party' even is. The more of us understand the reality of parties, the more we will come up with new and innovative event-ideas to actually be able to connect with each other and resolve the internal issues instead of coping with them using instant-gratification partying.

You just have to decide that someone is 'your person', to be honest. And the way you do that is you figure out what role they play in your life and when they do a good job, you compliment them! Is there a step of 'see how you feel about the action you plan on taking, whether it's authentic or not to you' in the middle of this process? This is how you do the 'authentic style of pick-up' as a man too. It's the right way to cold-approach and 'learn social-skills' like that cuz it sets you up for authentic relationships in the future. Ah, okay. Maybe not for you personally, but it was a point in your OP for women in general. If you compliment cishet men on something they're good at/capable in, it would be life-changing for them. And, there is no danger of it coming across as sexual. Do this only if it's authentic to you/it genuinely is your love-language. The truth is that women whose love-language is physical-touch spontaneously give hugs without worrying about whether it'll come across as sexual. Women whose love-language is words of affirmation give compliments without worrying about it coming across as sexual! It's a creative process on your side, it's a process of expressing who you are and your authentic truth. If it's not your love-language, I'd highly recommend that you learn more about your motivations behind wanting to do this. Cuz if you don't, you may do more harm than good.

@eos_nyxia The attitude that I'm getting from your post is that it's a chore for you. That you're not really motivated to do this but you're considering it because it would be a nice thing to do for others around you. (You don't sound motivated to do it for women, children and animals either, by the way) Consider the possibility that words of affirmation are not your love-language. And figure out what your love-language is. And express love in that language. This is also the answer to a potential fear that you'd have of 'having to be everything for your husband'. The truth is that if you want to be authentic and loving in an inspired way, you need love-language compatibility with your partner (or even friends, for that matter). If you have that, you will have no issues being loving towards them in the right love-language, it will not feel like a chore and it will not drain you.

Teaching.

I have noticed that when we talk about men's loneliness or emotional-starvation, there is a rhetoric especially from progressive spaces that 'you're acting like a little boy' or 'you need to man up'. I am coining a new term for this response. It's called 'benevloent emasculation'. Benevolent Emasculation - The act of gaslighting a man into believing that he's acting like a little boy when he expresses his very real problems. To all of you doing this behavior, here's my question - why do YOU assume that when a man talks about his problems, he's 'acting like a little boy'?! Where did that come from?! Why are YOU convincing men that they're less mature than they are?! Why are YOU conditioning men into believing that they're 'being little boys'?! Do real men not communicate?! Is that what this boils down to?!

When you ask me what I want to talk about, the assumption is that I want to talk about something. You're not acknowledging the issue. What's with this assumption that your own problems are somehow special?! Everyone goes through similar shit. If we discuss it out, everyone benefits from it. No individual is special. That is precisely why you talk about what you're going through, cuz others can learn from it! If all solutions must come from your own mind, there would be no such thing as education. The reason credentials are valued is that some people have credibility, some don't. So, credentials are a proof of that. No expert would be needed in this hypothetical world you're talking about. Well, it's very rich of people who don't give enough shits, to act like know-it-alls and give shitty advice. If you don't give a shit, zip it and move on with your life. Don't mislead others.

You're assuming that I want to talk about something, you're making this about me, when it's not. This is a chronic pattern I see in men's spaces. People get solution-oriented too quickly without understanding what's going on, then they end up giving bad advice. Sometimes, the advice/interpretation you get is purely theoretical. There is very little effort being put into seeing the reality of what's required. I had to name this pattern of bad-faith advice-giving, which is moreso about dick-measuring than actually helping someone. This 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' rhetoric needs to stop. Everyone knows that, you rocket-scientist. Be of help if you can, or shut up. We don't need the obvious to be stated. It's like telling Roger Federer that 'he should've just hit the ball better' when he lost to Djokovic.

Benevolent emasculation. 'Boo hoo, you're being a victim'. How about this - You quit assuming that people are being victims just because they're talking about something they're going through.

Benevolent emasculation. Saying that 'you need to take responsibility', assumes that I'm not taking responsibility. Benevolent emasculation. What 'neurosis'?! I love how people just make up dysfunctionalities that you don't have. You're saying that I have issues that I don't have, then you're telling me that I'm not taking action to resolve them. Benevolent emasculation. 'You're a weak man, you can't do shit'. The real immaturity is to play this dick-measuring contest in which when someone talks about what they're going through, you jump in there to show them how much bigger your dick is than theirs. Nobody cares how big your dick is, even though they're going to compliment you on it cuz it benefits them to. But, the problem we're talking about has the solution of compassionate understanding. If you're going to twist it around and try to be predatory and manipulate them to your ends, that's a you-problem. How do you connect with your passion without connecting to your emotions?! Somehow, we see emotions as a negative thing. I put quotes, meaning, people who think they're 'strong men', when they're really coming here for validation as to how much stronger they are than you. This hyper-competitiveness needs to stop. Projection. The best way to come across as a 'real man' is to police the 'real man' talk to others. I see through it, don't worry.

Benevolent emasculation. You say one thing is true and then you say that the opposite is true. Paradox or strange-loop?! Benevolent emasculation. This idea that 'talking about what you're struggling with and seeking out help is weakness and incapability, you're supposed to tough it out alone'. Oh, it prevents wars. Benevolent emasculation. 'Talking about your problems necessarily means that you're not doing anything and you're not taking action, you're weak and pathetic and blah blah blah'. Having a compassionate woman is not a means to an end. It is the end. There is no higher goal than having people just be nice to each other and get along with each other. Nothing else matters. Benevolent emasculation. 'Men don't have emotions, if you express how you feel, you're expecting people to babysit you and you're not doing anything productive, you're a worthless sack of shit'. I don't care about what you think works. I care about what's actually needed. So, either be of help, or go away. We don't need any more lectures from 'strong men' about 'how much you have to man up'.

Move to a bigger city like Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi where there are more liberal women. Conservative Indian women typically don't date, they get arranged-marriages. They see all attempts to date them as 'sexual harassment'. They have mindsets like 'dating is for players, not serious guys who want to settle down'.