Mindful Bum

I just watched Leo's video, The Next Evolution Of Actualized.org Teachings, which includes a segment on mental illness. I've been consuming Leo's videos for several years now, and I've always appreciated his insights, but this segment was one of the rare occasions where his messaging kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like he reinforced the stigma around mental health and framed the whole thing in a way that was surprisingly naïve and narrow-minded. There are many implicit assumptions and very little nuance. Ironically, his intention to be more cautious was conveyed in a way that seems dismissive, apathetic, and woefully out of touch. I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Let's have a respectful conversation about it. You can click the link above to watch the segment (it's only a couple minutes), or you can read the transcript below. What parts stood out to you? What was your gut reaction?

I have a lot of experience dealing with mental health issues, both personally (I've suffered from depression) and academically (I'm studying to become a psychedelic therapist). So to me, Leo's ignorance is immediately obvious from the comments he made. Experts in the field don't throw around phrases like "the mentally ill" and they certainly don't use it as a valid stereotype. It's obvious to me that Leo has a very specific preconception about people with mental illness, and it hinders his ability to connect with that part of his audience. But his comments aren't just out of touch, they're potentially harmful. The stigma around mental health is a real problem that adds to suffering and death. Suggesting that people with mental health issues are hopelessly dramatic and should be avoided...to me, that's beyond ignorant; that's potentially dangerous. Not to mention, it added nothing to the video and was counterproductive to his stated intention of being more considerate of those viewers. His comments weren't like wildly offensive to me...I just think there's a lot of room for improvement, and I was curious to know how other forum members felt about it.

Well one of my points was that Leo seems to believe that mental illness is a concrete thing, when in fact it's a very subjective, nebulous concept. @Razard86 expanded on this point, which I appreciate. I also appreciate your perspective that you shared above.

It's a bit disappointing to see so many forum veterans lining up to defend Leo's position (i.e., that actualized.org isn't intended to treat mental illness), which wasn't even really called into question. My issue was with his messaging, which unnecessarily reinforces the stigma around mental illness and stereotypes the mentally ill as being dramatic and incompatible with spiritual pursuits--all without offering any real definition of mental illness. Leo has created an imaginary category of other called the mentally ill, claimed he wants to help those people by adding disclaimers and cautionary warnings to his videos, and then threw those people under the bus with comments like "I wouldn't be friends with a mentally ill person." I guess it's just me who thinks there's room for improvement there.

@Leo Gura I hear what you're saying, but you still haven't clearly defined mental illness. And for good reason: a clear definition doesn't exist. The mental health field has taken the infinite possibilities of the human mind and behavior, and forced everyone into finite categories that are vaguely defined and usually dependent on self-reporting. Complicating the issue further is the reality that many mental health disorders are defined and diagnosed primarily as a convenience for medical insurance and billing purposes. For many people, their first mental health diagnosis comes from a mental health professional that their parents force them to visit and who is financially incentivized to make a diagnosis, prescribe medications, etc., often after a single visit. These kids are given diagnoses/labels that more often than not create limiting beliefs about themselves. These labels follow them through life, shaping their perception and future, despite the fact that the diagnosis was formed from a single disinterested person's interpretation of the patient's responses to a handful of contrived questions. Mental health (and therefore mental illness) is just as infinite and undefinable as consciousness. And the two are intrinsically linked, just like personal development and spirituality. In actuality, there are no hard boundaries between these domains. So when you talk about "the mentally ill" as if it's a real and meaningful category of people, you come across as ignorant. Because if you had even a basic understanding of modern mental healthcare, you wouldn't be wielding such a loaded term so carelessly. The thing is...I know you DO have the necessary knowledge and critical thinking skills necessary to deconstruct "mental illness." I've thoroughly enjoyed the many hours of video content you've published on deconstructing the myth of science. You even specifically mention the limits of modern medicine in this clip from Assumption Is The Mother Of All Fuck-ups. So from my perspective, you are uniquely qualified to help this huge demographic that suffers from mental health disorders--for example, by revealing how most diagnoses are highly subjective inventions of for-profit organizations--but instead, you seem to have accepted uncritically the idea that there are only two kinds of people in this world: those who are mentally ill (/dramatic/dysfunctional) and those who are not...and the former should be ignored? I understand that actualized.org isn't geared toward people suffering from extreme forms of mental illness, nor is it the best resource for helping such people. I'm not suggesting otherwise. What I am suggesting is that you investigate your seemingly rigid beliefs about "the mentally ill" and learn about psychology/neurobiology at least to a point where you recognize we're all on the same spectrum; no fundamental difference exists. This demographic (i.e., those with mental health issues) is MUCH bigger than you think, and your teachings have a much greater healing potential than you think. The effectiveness of psychedelics, meditation, and mystical experiences as treatments for mental illness has shown to be far superior to psychotherapy and/or medication. This IS your wheelhouse, Leo.

This part in particular made me recoil. It assumes "a mentally ill person" is clearly definable and recognizable. It stereotypes these people as inherently dramatic, and it pretty clearly states that this drama is incompatible with spiritual pursuits. Most people with mental health issues have a fear of burdening their loved ones, so they isolate and their condition worsens. This quote unapologetically validates that fear by portraying the mentally ill as people to avoid. My heart breaks for anyone suffering from mental illness who actually watches this video segment. I understand the point Leo is trying to make (the road to enlightenment is not paved with interpersonal conflict), but this is a shockingly insensitive way of saying it.

Thanks everyone for the support and feedback. I have some things to add that I thought of or that occurred after my original post. The thing that became apparent last night is that my 85 mg session was WAY beyond the 72 mg session, in terms of effects and duration. The 85 mg session actually felt like it changed me. I go on walks at night, and last night's walk was pretty incredible. I was just so clear and joyful. My mindfulness and presence felt much stronger than usual. For the first time in a while, I was optimistic about my future. And these effects were at least 7 hours after my session, whereas the 72 mg session was completely back to baseline by then. I've been fasting every Sunday, so one thing that made yesterday's session different is that I didn't immediately eat afterwards. By the time I went to bed, I had been fasting for about 24 hours. I took my usual 5 mg of melatonin, but it didn't put me out like it usually does. Instead, I could feel my state of consciousness drifting toward the 5-MeO experience. In simple terms, I might call it a reactivation, but it wasn't a black-and-white kind of thing. It was like a tug-of-war between sleep and 5-MeO, where I was constantly fluctuating between the two. It was rather annoying actually, because there was nothing I could do with the 5-MeO at that point. It's like 5 am...I'm trying to sleep, not explore the nature of reality. This insomnia persisted for several hours, and all the while, my hunger was absolutely INSANE. I mean...I've been fasting every Sunday for a few weeks now, and I've never really struggled with it. I usually get up on Monday, take my meds, work out, and eat after 4 pm. This morning though, at maybe 8 am, I finally snapped and just stuffed myself. And as soon as I did, my brain was finally like, "Okay, you can go to sleep now." And I passed out for about 4 hours. Something else I'll mention is that I looked up the half life of Wellbutrin and it's like 21 hours (give or take 9 hours). So for my 72 mg session, I still would have had a decent amount of it in my system. For my next session, I will stop my meds for at least a week and see if it affects my 5-MeO tolerance at all. I'll insert an obligatory disclaimer here: I'm working closely with my doctor, and I certainly do not recommend anyone reading this starts making changes to their medications without talking to a doctor first. Lastly, I'll mention that I vaped some DMT last night after my walk. LOL. Yes, I know how ridiculous that sounds. Still reeling from the most powerful psychedelic known to man, I figured why not add the second most powerful to the mix? The short story is...I've been vaping small quantities of DMT and dancing alone in my bedroom every Sunday night. It's a "practice" I've committed to to help me loosen up and get more in touch with my body. I'm generally a very stiff, self-conscious person who never dances, so...yeah. DMT helps me get out of my head and into the music, and it's very short acting, so it doesn't keep me up all night like MDMA might. Anyway, I was curious to see if the lingering 5-MeO effects would potentiate the DMT effects. From what I could tell...no. At least not noticeably. I will say though...I already felt pretty good before the DMT, and I'm not sure it really added anything of value to the experience that the 5 was already producing. In a way, it felt like the DMT just clouded my consciousness. If / how the DMT played a part in the subsequent insomnia...I can't say. When I finally woke up today, I didn't take my amphetamine meds. I wanted to see if the 5-MeO clarity could withstand the withdrawal from such a powerful stimulant. Short answer: no. I have felt rather lethargic and uninspired today. So the effects from yesterday's session seem to have worn off completely by now--or they're hidden by the amphetamine withdrawal. Being dependent on meds bothers me, and I would certainly love to see myself freed from them with the help of 5-MeO. But that's asking a lot, so we'll have to wait and see. Next steps for me are to detox from meds for a while and try another 5 session, dropping the dose back to around 20 mg to see if my tolerance has changed.

I haven't found much information about 5-MeO fumarate dosing (specifically plugging), so I wanted to briefly share my experience in hopes that it will help others. The substance is a greyish powder that turns a brownish color when mixed with water. I have been plugging it every day for the past 5 days. I'm new to 5-MeO, so I've been gradually increasing my dose each day. I try to keep other variables constant, so the conditions have been: Fasted for at least 16 hours (I intermittent fast, so this just means doing 5-MeO before I eat that day.) Alone in my bedroom, lying on a pile of blankets and pillows on the floor. Vomit bucket on standby. Earbuds playing relaxing acoustic music. Clean rectum. Sorry for being graphic here, but since I do intermittent fasting, I reliably take a shit each morning. Afterwards, I get in the shower and use the handheld shower nozzle to literally rinse out my rectum. This is basically a faster, more efficient method of anal douching. The point here is that the 5 absorption isn't affected by fecal matter. The substance batch, weighing, mixing, and plugging protocols all remained consistent. The dosing and effects were as following: 20 mg Noticeable body load within 5 minutes. Moderate nausea. Mind was focused on relaxing and breathing. Return to baseline in ~30 minutes. 25 mg Body load slightly heavier, but no significant difference. 30 mg Intense nausea by around 10 minutes, which progressed to the point where I sat up and turned over onto my hands and knees, head hovering above my vomit bucket. If I had anything in my stomach, I'm confident I would have vomited. Instead, I just dry heaved and spit a few times. Overall, a pretty uncomfortable experience. Mentally, I was just surrendering as much as I could. 50 mg I was actually pretty terrified to bump it to 50 mg, and to focus my mind on something, I decided to watch some porn while I waited for the 5 to absorb. Interestingly, this worked almost too well--I ended up jerking off and barely noticed the effects of the drug. Jerking off on 5-MeO is actually pretty damn amazing. My nausea was noticeable but not nearly as bad as 30 mg. Not my proudest fap, but surely my most spiritual. This session was actually confidence-inspiring, since it suggested the 5-MeO experience is to some degree mentally controllable. 72 mg This was my first genuine attempt to break through. I say this because one of the reviewers of this 5 MeO DMT fumarate said they take 75 mg. This is much higher than vaporized freebase doses, so at the time I thought that reviewer was just fucking with people. After my 50 mg session didn't even come close to breaking through, I realized that person was being honest. Nevertheless, I didn't break through. The body load and nausea were intense af, but I remained lying on my back in a symmetrical / open position. Mentally, I was asking God to just show me what I needed. (Important distinction to note here: I'm an atheist, so I'm asking a conceptual God, mostly out of desperation. In other words, it's coming from a place of wanting to believe there's a God listening, but not from the place of "knowing God" that Leo frequently talks about.) I was focused on surrendering and trying not to think too much. I basically rode it out without any significant ego loss or insights (other than the frustration of feeling imprisoned by ego and being unable to let it go). Return to baseline was more like 60 minutes. 85 mg Oh. Shit. This was fucking NUTS. The following literally happened just hours ago. At first I was struggling to surrender. I was trying my best to lean into it and let go. I couldn't stay on my back and rolled onto my hands and knees, not so I could vomit but because the experience was getting so intense, I was basically praying for God to take me. There was a very powerful emotional purge trying to happen, but I was holding it back because I didn't want my brother to hear me sobbing and try to come in the room (no one else was home). We have a very emotion-repressing kind of relationship, and we don't cry in front of each other. Sadly, we don't even tell each other I love you (we're in our late 30's, BTW). I was basically "shown" that my reluctance to be seen/heard crying was preventing me from losing my ego, and if I wanted to go all the way, I couldn't bring that self-conscious nonsense with me. At this point, I'm making this crazy guttural noise that doesn't seem to belong to me at all. I have the thought that I need to go find my brother and tell him I love him. I knew this would be REALLY shocking for him, and frankly, I was scared. But this wasn't just a random thought; this was more like a test. This was like God telling me "if you can't even tell your brother you love him, you're clearly not ready for anything else." So I did it. I went and found my brother, and I couldn't even get a word out, I just hugged him and started bawling. And I mean BAWLING. He starts freaking out like "Oh fuck...don't tell me Mom died." And I finally explain that nothing bad happened, I'm just on drugs. He goes over and sits down on the couch, and I basically collapse at his feet, just sobbing uncontrollably and telling him over and over how much I love him and how sorry I am that I'm too awkward and self-conscious to ever tell him that or to ever be real with him. This was like 35 years worth of bottled-up love and tears, all coming out at once. It's hard to describe the magnitude of this emotional surrender. It was the most vulnerable I've ever been in my entire life. I was loving my brother from a pure, unobstructed perspective for the first time ever. And meanwhile, he's clearly stuck in the reality I'm usually in, because he's talking about drugs and bad trips and generally doing everything in his power to dismiss the profundity of the experience I'm having and to avoid actually connecting on a deep level. And his dismissive / avoidant behavior is of course giving me a perfect view of how I normally operate. It was such a beautiful and powerful experience for me, but at the same time, there was a sort of tragic tone to it, because there was this giant invisible gap separating us. I wanted to just shake him awake and be like "just be with me right now." I talked / cried for well over 45 minutes. It's now nearly 5 hours after dosing, and I'm still emotionally very raw / open. I've cried several times while writing this--not in a bad way. They are tears of gratitude. My goal now is to convince my brother to try 5-MeO. I'm not sure I really sold the experience though, so I certainly have my work cut out for me. I wouldn't consider this a breakthrough experience in the traditional sense. I didn't reach complete egoless nonduality. But I definitely stepped to the edge and peered over. I felt the immeasurable power of it all. I was shown something that was holding me back, and I was able to surrender completely to it. It wasn't "fun" by any means, but I walk away with the knowledge that I won't die without ever telling my brother how much I love him. As awkward as it was for him, I still ripped down a huge emotional wall between us. He might write it off as drug-induced delusion, but I won't. That wall came down, and even if it goes back up, it will always be permanently weakened. I gave us permission to say "I love you" and to cry in front of each other. That's HUGE. I feel like I dropped 20 lbs of repressed emotional baggage today. It feels incredible. I just hope I don't have to have a similar purge with everyone I love. LOL. There are a couple of important points I want to mention regarding my dosing. First, I'm using a milligram scale that I'm guessing is accurate to + or - 5 mg. I say this because I can move the measuring tray around and get it to settle on slightly different readings. It's calibrated, but it's also just a $40 scale, so we're not talking lab-grade instruments here. Second, 85 mg seems like a LOT. I haven't read many trip reports of people doing this much (which is part of why I wanted to share my experience). To break through, I might even have to go a bit higher. Maybe 90 mg? I don't know. 85 mg really felt like I was right there. I'll update this post when I break through and list the dose. But it certainly got me wondering why I'm apparently taking so much more than other people. (BTW, I'm about 185 lbs / 84 kg.) The first question would be what is the purity? I don't have a way of testing this, but just based on the appearance of the powder, I'd guess it's quite pure. I say this because the powder is extremely uniform in appearance and dissolves evenly. 5-MeO is legal in some countries, so it's possible to order it from laboratories. If I had to guess, I'd say that's what this is. This doesn't strike me as amateur / home lab stuff. The second question is what medications / supplements am I taking that might interfere with the 5-MeO? Regarding medications, I take 300 mg of Wellbutrin (i.e., Bupropion) and 15 mg of Dexedrine (i.e., amphetamine) per day. I stopped the Wellbutrin on the 72 mg and 85 mg days, but I didn't notice any difference. I took the dextroamphetamine on all the days. Does the amphetamine possibly metabolize the 5-MeO faster? I don't know. Just wondering aloud here. In any case, for anyone searching whether or not you can mix these meds with 5-MeO-DMT, here's at least one case report of someone who did so and lived. I'm not saying it's safe--I'm just saying I still have a pulse. One last thing...to those of you who might be on the fence about taking 5-MeO because you don't have any trip sitter or facilitator, and maybe you've read that people freak out, vomit, shit themselves, scream, flail about, etc....I just want to say I had the same fears. I have heard a lot of people suggest that you definitely shouldn't try it without a sitter or facilitator. I can appreciate the concern, but in my case, I chose to do it alone and just slowly increase the dose. I set up my blankets so that I was in a lounge / zero-gravity position, just in case I pass out and vomit, it's very unlikely I'd asphyxiate on it. Rather, it would spill down my chest. My point here being, the risks can be mitigated with the right research and precautions. I also paid like $120 for a drug testing kit that gave me reasonable confidence in the authenticity of the substance. So yeah...if you put your mind to it, you can experience this for yourself. Do your research and be smart about it. If anyone has any experience plugging the fumarate or another salt at doses this high, please leave a comment. I'm curious to know if I'm actually an outlier here, and if so, by how much.