Jacquelope

Sorry that I'm seeing this late, but honestly, it's not healthy for men, either. Sleeping with a lot of women is more often than not a symptom of either serious mental issues or an inability to keep a relationship for long. Dark Triad traits factor into the fabric of a lot of men who sleep around. I don't see how men who sleep around like that can settle down and be loyal, good fathers or good at bonding. And the risk for STDs is higher too.

More men need to come out and say exactly this to the younger and impressionable men of the world. Though I would say wait and see if she's also got an attractive personality before making one's move. Men are way too obsessed with looks, it's just not healthy.

Because younger guys are seen and widely demonized as immature and inept. Many young men are in the Starbucks barrista stage of their lives and plenty are also inexperienced with women. Many are also put off by the idea that in this feminist world it's still on them to make the first move and that's making a lot of men nope out. Maybe women can start making moves too?

Maybe instead look for a woman who's thinking:emotions ratio is compatible with yours instead of trying to make yourself into something you're not even comfortable with? You might be setting yourself up for pairing up with a woman you can't stand in the long term, once your true self bubbles back to the surface. That won't end well.

I would rather my son (who is aging into this crapshow called the dating scene) live in a world where 90% of women were morally upstanding. Not like being virgins or church goers but I'm talking about women who don't see men as disposable... which is the fork in the road between all the good and evil we as men experience in dating. Looks will fade but moral character and similar values last forever.

I think that the endless pursuit of casual sex is damaging to men's psyches and is only encouraging cruelty toward men in the dating scene. Following up on my post about male thirst, it seems to me that the pursuit of casual sex ultimately clouds a man's mind and cripples his ability to properly vet women for essential moral qualities. I see it as a severe impairment to a man's psychological development and especially to his ability to achieve his full potential in life, even if certain ideologies say chasing sex is something that drives him to self-improve. My experience says LTR sex can either deteriorate (dead bedroom) or vastly outshine one night stands depending on how the couple approaches things. With ONS though you simply can't get to know your partner and develop intimacy on any deep level, which presents hard limits on how good the sex can be. There's also another problem - women face so many male candidates for sex that they are encouraged to treat them the way an employer treats floods of job applicants. Just like employers use cruel algorithms that do things like weed out the unemployed, those with bad credit or older applicants, women with so many men vying for a spot in their bed will do the same thing in the sexual market. If men had floods of women chasing them they'd do the same thing: women aren't different from men in this regard. We can clearly see the toxic effect this sexual market problem (which I call the algorithm effect) has had on men's psyche. This all leads me to the conclusion that simply "getting laid" shouldn't be the paradigm that governs men's thinking, in my opinion. I believe that we should be looking more toward intimate relationships and sex within that context. We should be dialing down on the casual sex and trying to find a soul mate, or at least the "happily for the long term" if "happily ever after" doesn't seem possible. The "it's a man's imperative to spread his seed" seems just too much of a copout and it's making life far harder on most men than life would be after abandoning that mindset. Choosing a LTR mindset over the one night stand (ONS) mindset combined with a focus on a woman's moral character, lifestyle compatibility and the like, would give a man more focus and the incentive to set (and respect) proper boundaries, and may even some self awareness to see what he can contribute to the relationship. Summary: "getting laid" should never be the goal of a man. Long term intimacy and deep connection with one high-quality woman should take its place as the male imperative. Thoughts?

I basically said my existing notions don't agree with the data. One thing is true though, 27.5% of men succeeding in bars and night clubs bodes well for men below the top 20% (elite) group, but it doesn't necessarily open the door to average men. It more likely means above average/below elite men can handle that venue, though. So, what kind of women hang out at these venues? I think it's not dumb to assume the women who visit these places are very tough audiences and very defensive. I would be highly surprised if any female patron at these establishments turn out to be tolerant of men who are anything less than very smooth talking and good looking. (This would support the even higher success levels found in online dating.)

I absolutely believe it does. This is why I and others say excessive amounts of sexual intimacy cheapens it and damages one's pair-bonding abilities. For men and women alike. This comes from the prospect of succeeding in dating, not sucking at it. I must also bring up the possibility that if one sucks at dating, and they fix the wrong underlying issues that make them suck at dating, then success may bring them worse suffering than failing. A terrible breakup, being cheated on, suffering abuse, etc are a number of potential examples. I was engaged to a woman once in a relationship that made me wish I had replaced those years with involuntary celibacy, it was just that bad. Fortunately it was something I experienced only once. Then again I can imagine what that would have done to me if I had run into that relationship after years of involuntary celibacy. It wouldn't have been pretty. Yeah as long as we don't adapt by making relationships disposable, which is a common defense mechanism developed from breakups. I don't see how one can do that and remain mentally stable and suitable for a LTR. I admit my perspective has gaps so someone else will have a differing opinion.

Consider me confused by that statistic. Bars and nightclubs aren't even venues for couples to meet, they're for hookups, one night stands, that kind of thing. Only the best looking men succeed there. So what has changed? Are women lowering their standards? What's going on?

Actually..... LOL someone else beat me to it. I think that high quality women exist, at least in terms of moral character. For instance if she's not a game player or a foodie caller then she is at least higher quality than women who are. What is scary is there is also a severe uptick of couples meeting in.... bars and restaurants? Only a tiny minority of elite men ever have a chance at making it there.

I've been on both sides of those train tracks so no you can't blow this out of the water that way. And what is this obsession with hot babes anyway? Doesn't anyone around here value other traits in a woman besides looks? That's where men play themselves so easily, if she's a hot babe then they'll sink so low as to buy her bath water. Then men wonder why women play them so easily and so brutally - half the answer is staring at them right there in the mirror. This "I gotta get laid, I don't want to die a virgin" mentality is literally exactly how men wind up at the highest risk of dying as lonely virgins. This is a paradox that apparently a lot of guys don't understand. Name me one woman on Earth who has ever had this kind of desperate mindset. I don't think anyone can, and this is why so many (even if not all) women have an abundance of male attention: they understand the law of supply and demand, and keep their offering of supply under control. We men hand out offers of dick like candy, devaluing it to nothing. And then we wonder why so many men are sexless. As for what's worse than being rejected? Again, I offer you the example of what happened to Johnny Depp. You can manage to get laid and then have your life blown to smithereens. "At least I got laid" will be cold comfort then. That happens when you choose the wrong woman to have sex with - a far higher risk when you just "gotta get laid". This is how men fall prey to cuckolding, domestic abuse, paternity fraud, and a number of other horror shows that can also come with getting laid. Then you wind up going MGTOW/Red Pill or some other equally crazy nonsense... all because you let your dick lead you instead of your brain. Just like women know how to filter men and chase the highest quality men, we need to filter women and chase only the highest quality women. Value sex just the same way that women do, and we will actually get laid more often, but without fucking at random like mindless dogs. ??? My wife met me on Match.com. We were serious about a relationship from the get-go. We've been married about 20 years now with four kids. You're talking about random hookups, and too much of that is hazardous for one's marital satisfaction and has already been shown out by another poster (using a chart, no less) as such. Maybe what's intentionally being ignored here is something I've repeatedly said: it's not about having no casual sex, it's about dialing down its importance and pursuing it less. This culture is too obsessed with hooking up and look at the shit show it has caused. We're hopelessly unbalanced and addicted to the sexual equivalent of junk food. A take-out hamburger once in a while is fine but a diet based on it... well, we all did see that "diet of McDonalds" video, right?

When our cravings are out of control, we are overprioritizing them, we are choosing the wrong strategies to pursue them, and are getting in trouble while achieving them, we do need to fix things. It's not about denial, it's about self-control. There are worse things for a man than not getting laid - sometimes it is having sex with the wrong woman for the wrong reasons that can hurt him even more. Johnny Depp would happy tell you about one extreme example. His uncontrolled cravings led him to leave the mother of his child and fall into the arms of Amber Heard. We know how far sideways that went.

I want to answer this... I've missed out on plenty of hot babes / X and Y kind of girls even though I did have casual sex in my youth. I still never cheated on my wife nor did I want to. Lots of casual sex doesn't cure "fear of missing out". There is always going to be Z kind of woman that you never had sex with. But at some point too much casual sex does damage a man's ability to pair-bond just like it does for women. As for the rest, Leo already addressed that with authority and wisdom. Thank you very much for all of this! First thing, Red Pill is very good at understanding what the Tinder era women behave like. They correctly understand this is a very widespread spiritual pandemic affecting most women. The problem with Red Pill is they are trapped in a mindset where they only see or run into these toxic women. Their mentally damagd tactics are designed to win over these damaged women. There are good women out there and Red Pill is totally, tragically unsuited to finding or connecting with these women. And your take on their virgin obsession is also right on the mark, these virgins can also experience FOMO and resort to cheating, just like their husbands can. Secondly, I believe that dating apps should be approached with caution and understanding of their strengths and weaknesses. The main strength of dating apps is all the women there are pre-qualified: you're not walking into a supermarket and hitting on a woman only to find she is not at all interested in being talked to. You're not intruding on her space like a door to door salesman. She is essentially a pre-qualified lead, although like pre-Q'd leads there's no guarantee of success. If you're approaching her in a dating app, she is interested in someone, even if ultimately it isn't you. This is huge. The drawback of dating apps is larger hordes of men are potentially competing for smaller groups of women. That's huge also, as some reports show the gender skew can be disastrously high, up to 3 men to every 1 woman in some cases. This disparity makes success for a man mathematically unlikely no matter how high value he is. Yet it is still better than real life matchups, even dating in your social circle is less successful. As for my take on casual sex and relationships, Raze posted a chart that summarizes my opinion on that. Excessive hookups ruins a person, to be concise about it. Of course, to quote a song, the good old days aren't as good as they say, the reality is we need moderation. People did pair-bond for life before but there was a lot of abuse and cheating. What went wrong with the old ways is husbands weren't punished so hard for cheating but the wife was, she couldn't earn her own money or own her own property and then there was the abuse. These are some of the things that we needed to fix to restore a proper culture of monogamy. A lot of it is now fixed, except the glorification of men sleeping around on their LTR partners. Men also need to decouple their masculinity and self-esteem from how much they earn, how good looking their partner is, and how alpha/dominant they are. Back to dating apps, we need to discourage hookups, first of all it disadvantages men (see: the law of supply and demand) and grossly distorts women's ego and gives them a false sense of superiority, and as Raze said it damages one's ability to achieve satisfaction in an LTR. Serial monogamy is not the inevitable end of things in society. We can go back to a healthier and more gender equitable form of monogamy which will benefit society as a whole.

Thanks a lot! My insights come from listening to innumerable other opinions that have often clashed with my own beliefs, including Red Pill which I find to be accurate in their assessment of Tinder-era women but utterly horrible when it comes to how to cope, and feminists who have some good points but are militantly unwilling to admit women need some correction as well as men. Just one bit about women entering the labor force, it's quite chilling to follow that to its logical conclusion which is often what traditional conservatives are want to do: remove women from the labor force. Honestly aside from the aspect of women being equally entitled to the benefits of freedom and individual liberty, I think (from a selfish/no virtue signaling perspective) that it's a good thing women are doing better. Do we really want to be their walking wallets? A woman that looks down at you for earning less than her won't love you if you're earning a lot more, she'll only love your money. We know where that goes... paternity fraud, alimony, to list a few potential consequences. 38% of married women earn more than their husbands in America, and the level of dissatisfaction women feel about this is declining, not rising. (It's not all bad news out there, contrary to what Red Pill says). Honestly I feel like heck, let the rise of women affect the whole dynamic. If a woman feels like she's settling when men are being hit this hard then she's not worth being with. I don't think we should let ourselves worry about trying to keep out-earning women, or out-alpha'ing women. Power games between men and women is like nuclear war - even when you win, you still lose. There is no loving relationship at the end of that game, I'm reminded here of what Miriam Nakamoto did when her boyfriend lost that MMA match (I can provide a link to the youtube video of what I mean if you haven't seen it) as a warning to what can happen to men who play alpha/power games. The problem is we men have been indoctrinated into believing that we need to play these games to be with a proper woman, when in reality we are being groomed to chase toxic relationships that are spiritually dead. A woman playing these games will never love you, she will only love the dominance you have over her or others. On the other hand men should be looking for something besides a woman's looks, too. Red Pill in particular obsesses about "getting the hottest babes" but that's for another thread. I'll just stay on topic: a man is better off prioritizing her moral character and compatibility regardless of whether she's Basic Suzie / some extra pounds / Jennifer Lopez clone / whatever. Hell if you're going to try to get experience before settling down forget the hot babe craze, better off to find a woman who's a tiger in the sack. Looks fade but skill doesn't! YMMV but that strategy ended quite well for me. Of course we're already having multiple conversations on here about healthy masculinity, I will take some time to go through them to further improve my own take on the issue.

We human beings control a lot of our base instincts, that's how civilization happened. We can't kill male thirst but we can tame it. It's part of being intelligent. As for a man with no excitement, no leadership, super serious, anxious, etc etc, isn't that an extreme example? How many men have all those negative qualities? Not many, I'd think. What's wrong with moderation? Before we start talking about alpha traits we should talk about that. Then we need to talk about something that seems to be heresy among men: what is a high value woman? Don't get me wrong I do believe that to find a high value woman we should provide equal value as a man. But... we need to accept that as human beings we will have some flaws. Not all men will have leadership, some will be socially anxious to some degree, some men are fairly timid about chasing women, although once again few men have all of the above drawbacks. If a woman is going to fail us out of the running because we have some of those flaws, she's not perfect herself, she too has flaws, judge not that ye not be judged and all that. And that's what I believe is wrong with men - we don't stop to see her flaws as equal to ours. To too many men she inherently has higher value because of being female, her flaws must be overlooked but we men must strive for perfection. That is what is giving women an overblown sense of empowerment, that is what I see as what is destroying us. Men of today aren't any worse than men of the past. It's the economy that is wrecking us. The mancession of 2008 was balanced out by the womancession of the pandemic. Women are participating less than men in the workforce. We're not as bad off as the feminist media claims we are. The problem is we're working harder and getting less in return from this economy, an age old problem and not a new one. Societies have always had so-called "surplus men" who couldn't find a job or a wife - they didn't slack off, instead they used to go to war and blow up civilizations, and that was clearly worse. Our problems are the same as they ever were, except that we can't go to war anymore in an era of nuclear weapons. With no way to spend away men in war and give them a purpose denied to them by a matured and disintegrating economy, instead of flattened cities and mass war-related depopulation... we have slackers. But yes oversexualization is a huge and unnecessary problem, it has helped to contribute to another issue that is common to all of this: expectations are rising far too fast for men. Women want more from men while providing less. Some of that is our fault, we don't ask much of women anymore, and that is a subtle but very big problem. Too many Instagram and onlyfans dudes out there wanting to buy some hot babe's bathwater. This is hurting us all. Honestly I'd love to be able to intervene with these toxic men's groups and de-radicalize them. How do you get them to realize that their instagram habits are part of the problem? We'd solve so much of this woman problem by spending some time pointing at the face in the mirror and calling out his over-permissive, over-aggressive tactics. The woman problem is inherently a man problem and the man problem is inherently a woman problem. The solution is not to just stop chasing women, I'm never suggesting this. The solution is to moderate our aggression and rethink our approach. We can shut this down. Fire requires fuel to burn. No fuel means no fire.

But I do think male sexlessness is a fast-rising problem, somewhat of women's doing and somewhat of our own. As a man I can only think to focus on our contributions, honestly. I did previously say in another thread that male thirst overall is out of control. We do need to control the thirst and desperation. What we need is a realignment of men's priorities away from the rampant need to a more focused and intelligent take. We're being pulled sideways almost entirely by instinct and lack of logic. Abundance mindset is useful to an extent, but any woman who is hooked on alpha traits or sexy genes simply isn't the kind of woman a man is going to achieve any sort of healthy relationship with. Women are showing us that they can live without us. We don't need to say "women suck" or "we don't need women" but we need to be less obsessed with women and more capable of being happy without them (just as they are happy without us) at least for a few generations... without going full Japanese Herbivore, of course. My take: We put way too much value on women and chasing women. That's what is hurting us.

A mix would be fine, it would be a far cry from the absolute obsession that is gripping the men of today. In my opinion if she gets repelled by the BF frame after taking the time to get to know her and all that? She's not awesome. Time to move on to another woman. Sometimes a man has to re-think what kind of woman he's looking for. JMHO. ROTFLMAO!!! We shouldn't be getting into the trap of thinking all women are like that. If they are, wouldn't it be logical to suspect we're choosing the wrong women and we should look at who we're chasing? My wife very much was calculating that, judging by the way she vetted me. I think the problem is many men don't even care to study her long enough to know if she is like that. I doubt my wife is the only woman like that.

That is actually a myth. These people have the exact same attitudes and even overcompensation issues that other people have, but their shortness magnifies the perceived magnitude of their attitude far beyond reality.

Good points, already doing this. I have been dropping him hints about what a good woman is... not a tradcon wife or a purple haired man hater, but someone sensible... like his mom. I am praying that my mostly subconscious vetting of a wife and mother of my children will rub off on him. I do drop hints about respecting women's boundaries and how to have boundaries of his own. I will be escalating from hints to outright overt teaching when he comes of age. It worked with my daughters so far. I just want to tweak it for my son, as boys need a different approach from girls. Your advice is stellar, thanks! Also, how do you add responses to another person to an existing post? Wasn't trying to double post here.

My son is going to be hitting puberty soon and I want to perfect (as much as possible) an action plan regarding keeping him from going girl-crazy. I don't want him to avoid girls, but I want him to put the concept of dating into perspective and not get caught up being desperate or getting into the routine of being the contestant in their little games. I don't want him to be a Chad or an incel, but the current dating environment out there sure seems extremely bifurcated between the males who are really good at attracting women and the guys being left out, with no middle ground that I can see. I think that taming that thirst, aggression and desperation is actually a good thing for all men, really, especially teenagers. Get them to work more on self-improvement and achievement in life but don't try to lie to themselves and ignore females entirely. How does a father help his son strike that balance? I strongly believe that this could help an entire generation of boys.

Oh yes, when he hits puberty I am definitely going to warn him against the hyper sexualization effects of porn. And the unrealistic expectations it creates, too. I certainlty don't want him to be a shut-in either. Good points, we do that already, limited exposure to games / social media and more exposure to social interactions, sports and books. I consider myself a man of integrity and consistent morals, and he seems to admire me a lot. Er, I take my wife out a lot but sometimes man I just want to veg, I try to keep a balance with that. We do run some businesses so he's learning that up close, too. He's got 3 sisters to interact with as well. He doesn't seem to be dysfunctional yet. It's just that puberty is coming and girls, well girls at that time in one's development, that factor changes everything. I've seen boys flip on a dime. Two of his older sisters have gone into puberty and haven't lost it, maybe he'll sail through with a clear head. But I'm wanting to take this writ large. There's millions of other boys out there who need some early intervention. Either they're hyper sexual or tragically deprived. Then something in Japan overcorrected and now most of their young men are semi-asexual Herbivores, a totally wrong thing in the opposite direction. It seems to me like the entire world's educational system is lacking when it comes to preparing boys and keeping them from losing their minds to their thirst. There's no doubt America has failed its boys on an educational and cultural level.