Shambhu

@RMQualtrough Sharing the same moment of time, or even a singular absolute now, is not logical proof that two minds are the same. Two colors (red and blue) can share the same moment or universal now, yet they are distinct from one another. @Terell Kirby Humans may be an appearance in the mind, but the mind is an appearance in Consciousness, just as an image appears in a mirror. The image is nothing other than the mirror, but the mirror is not the image.

@Consilience and @kieranperez Since you have interest in EI's and meditation, you might find "The Enlightenment Teachings of Yogeshwar Muni" an interesting read. It is a collection of talks by Yogeshwar Muni (Charles Berner), divided into two parts about Enlightenment Intensives and Sahaja Yoga meditation. https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0974410675/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_R4VCQ1QZGRJSPHGAGQYA

I will share a few personal suggestions with you. So long as you have doubts, you will always revert to seeing your self as an object among other objects. This is the human condition. Instead of approaching this in a haphazard way, try to systematically inquire into your experience until you can conclusively see that there is only pure consciousness. I won't go into details here, but Greg Goode has written several books about self-inquiry that you might find helpful. The first is "Standing as Awareness," which will be a good introduction, but more importantly is his book "The Direct Path: A User's Guide." It presents experiments covering the whole gamut of phenomena where you can verify for yourself that there is only awareness. My other suggestion is to take up meditation, but here again, be methodical. Meditate every day, preferably in the same place at the same time so that you can establish a routine. Spend 1-2 hours in meditation if possible, but if not, do whatever you can, just show up each day. One of my teachers, Sri Ramakant Maharaj, always said that the mind rejects the truth, and that is why you fail to grasp it or maintain a hold on it. That is the reason for meditation; it trains your mind to accept reality. Good luck!

That's something different. I've heard mixed reviews on the Finders course. Reddit has lots of info on it.

@Consilience Good luck! Keep us updated on how your experience progresses.

@Seraphim How can you be certain it is necessary? I think both @Consilience and myself have agreed that it can be very useful. No one has denied that. I even described my own experience of it above. Never? I haven't heard or read of such, and I don't see that as a possibility, unless they are in a coma. Do you mean addicted to particular thought patterns, like negative thinking? I could certainly see the value of transforming your thinking to better suit your goals, but the complete absence of all thoughts is only a temporary state. Most people cannot go 20 seconds without thinking. Advanced meditators can go many hours, but thoughts always return. It is as much a part of the human experience as breathing, circulating blood, and evacuating, but hey, prove me wrong. Respond to my post without thinking a single thought ;-)

@Seraphim You'll be "addicted" to thinking as long as you are "addicted" to breathing. ;-) @Consilience Nailed it :-) This is the highest teaching. All spiritual practices are for the purpose of realizing this alone. Well said. A calm mind is an opportunity, but not a guarantee.

@Irina Wolf Are you defining "mind" as discursive thoughts, abstract ideas, feelings, etc? If so, then yes, I have experienced it. I would describe it like being engrossed in a movie, and then suddenly losing the audio track. You are still aware of what is happening, but the dialogue and associated emotions vanish. It's a temporary experience, but you can gain insights from it. There is a broader definition of "mind" that also includes all sights, sounds, and other sensory perceptions. In this view, everything you experience is mind. This can also become still, but then everything disappears. Both the outside and inside worlds collapse into the void, and there is no one there to notice. However, it does leave an impression, and it can be recalled afterwards. @At awe You are not wrong. @Consilience This is a truer stillness. @Seraphim There are different states of samadhi, some with and without thoughts present. Savikalpa samadhi has faint impression and is considered lower than nirvikalpa samadhi, which is without thoughts. Sahaja samadhi is considered the highest. This is the state that Sri Ramana Maharshi often spoke about. When a saint experiences this samadhi, they can still conduct all actions as required, including thinking, but they are never distracted from the Truth. All states have value.

@integration journey I have attended several EI's, and I have staffed another. There are very few things that I could recommend more than an Enlightenment Intensive. It is a very powerful retreat with the potential to transform your life; it did mine. However, I would not recommend attempting it online. I don't believe you could replicate the "container," as they refer to it. You need the environment that is curated for the intensive. I would wait until you could join one in person.

As a side note, it was Durga Ma that gave me the name Shambhu.

@kieranperez I was very close to my original guru, Durga Ma. I received shaktipat diksha in her home. She is no longer with us physically, but yes, we both were located in the US. My second teacher, Sri Ramakant Maharaj, was located in India, and I spent time with him there. He has also passed on. My current living guru, Sri Punitachariji Mahara, is also in India. I have not had the opportunity to take his physical darshan, but I have spent time in the home of his authorized teacher in the UK. He presents my questions to the guru when he visits the ashram. I have also done live zoom sessions with my current guru.

@Consilience It feels like it chose me, if I'm being honest. I grew up in the Pentecostal church, so I was familiar with the phenomenon of spontaneous movements. When I discovered this form of Yoga, it just felt like home. Back in 2010, I had done several Enlightenment Intensives where I directly experienced the truth of Who and What I am. It's not hyperbole when I say it completely changed the course of my life. The problem though was that I could not retain the peace and joy that came with those realizations. For a few weeks after a retreat, I would feel the absolute perfection of existence. Nothing would bother me, and I could easily rest in my own true nature. Then inevitably, things would begin to nag me again. I would get angry or upset. I couldn't figure out what had changed. I decided that I needed a spiritual practice to stabilize my realizations. I tried Zen, but it didn't resonate. I read books and attempted to figure things out on my own, but I quickly recognized the need for a teacher. The Enlightenment Intensive had worked so well for me, I decided to see what practices the founder of the retreat used. That's how I discovered Sahaja Yoga. The purpose of kriyas is purification. What is described as being purified varies between teachers. Some say sanchit karma, some say prana, some say the mind, and all are correct. Whatever is true is true right now. Nothing new is gained with realization, but something is lost. To realize what is true in this moment, limiting beliefs and false concepts have to be discarded. In the Enlightenment Intensive, which some of Peter's programs are based on, contemplation is the tool used to purify the mind enough so that a breakthrough can occur. @kieranperez said the same basic thing. Even more importantly is the purification that is needed to abide as the truth. The classic yogic texts all echo the same idea, both jnana and yoga are required for moksha. Even Sri Shankaracharya said that if you cannot grasp Vedanta then more Hatha is required. Charles Berner, later known as Yogeshwar Muni, had many enlightenment experiences, but he was astute enough to see that chasing more and more peak experiences could not result in full enlightenment. That is why he sought out a teacher, and after meeting Swami Kripalu, he found what he was looking for. He spent the remainder of his life performing Yoga sadhana for 10 hours a day. The gradual vs sudden enlightenment argument is a very old one, and both sides are true from a perspective. I say get it if you can get it. If you can't get it right away, then keep trying. Yes, my sadhana is complete surrender. Kripalu and Muktananda are different branches of the Siddha tree, but yes, we always have to be careful of corruption.

@kieranperez My original guru, who gave me shaktipat initiation, was a women named Durga Ma. She was a disciple of Yogeshwar Muni (Charles Berner), who invented the Enlightened Intensive. They belonged to the Swami Kripalu Yoga lineage. She has passed on now, but you can still find some of her writings here: https://mysticaltidbits.com/ Next, I studied under Sri Ramakant Maharaj, who was a disciple of Nisargadatta Maharaj. He has also passed on. Now my living guru is Sri Punitachariji Maharaj. His website is http://www.sahajyoga.org/

@Consilience Although I have done Mahamudra and Dzogchen retreats, my primary practice for more than a decade has been Sahaja Siddha Yoga, so I will restrict my comments to my experiences within that tradition. Forgive me if I use technical Yoga jargon, but it's the language I am comfortable with and that I use to communicate with my teachers and fellow students. I can clarify any terms if necessary. Also, forgive me for the length of this post :-) Before I talk more about my personal experiences, let me lay some ground work in Yoga theory. I would also like to make a distinction between the school I belong to and most other schools. This is not in any a way a judgement of which is better, only a critical point in how I practice. Typically, Yoga is taught as a series of willful techniques. The guru provides instructions, and the student follows to the best of their ability. As the sadhaka progresses, corrections are made, techniques are modified, and new teachings are given. In the tradition I belong to, the Guru awakens the prana shakti through a look, touch, or mantra (or a combination of them). Once the prana shakti is awakened, the sadhaka surrenders it to God in meditation. Everything that follows is spontaneous. All asanas, pranayamas, mudras, bandhas, etc happen without the willful effort of the sadhaka. Whatever is required for progress happens happens naturally, in the correct sequence, and to appropriate degree. Now on to the theory. Yoga is divided into 4 broad categories, Mantra, Laya, Hatha, and Raja. Mantra Yoga is the joining of Ham and Sa, or the in and out breaths. Once the breath is flowing equally through both nostrils, it is said that the sushumna, or central energy channel, has awakened. Hatha Yoga is the uniting of the Ha and Tha, or the sun and moon. This refers to the prana (sun) and apana (moon) that flows through the ida and pingala channels, which flank the sushumna on the left and right. Laya Yoga brings the bindu and nada together (mind and sound), and finally, in Raja Yoga the jivatman and Paratman become one. In the early stages of Yoga sadhana, as illustrated in my original post, the ida and pingala nadis are being purified. The prana and apana that flows through them cannot join together and enter the sushumna until that process has completed. You may wonder what is being cleared from the nadis. It is the sanchit karmas from previous lives. During this phase, sadhakas can experience many various kriyas (spontaneous actions). One will laugh and another will cry. Some roll their head around their shoulders, and others roll their bodies along the floor. Everyone experiences something different according to their past life karmas. This is all part of the purification process. Even though different people have different experiences initially, as they progress, the experiences become more common and systematic. At a certain stage, everyone passes through the same asanas, pranayamas, bandhas, mudras, etc, all in the same order. Ultimately, everyone passes beyond the external rites and enter the internal limbs of Yoga. On a side note, Yoga is not only a life long project, it is a LIVES long process, so some stages can seem to be skipped, but they may have been accomplished previously, in another life time. Now, I will share some of the experiences I have had beyond year one of my sadhana. I cannot provide a complete account, since I didn't recorded every incident, and much has been forgotten. There are also some kriyas that are considered "concealed" from non-practitioners, so I cannot reveal those. I will attempt to at least cover the broad strokes. Going into my second year, I began to enter a state that was not waking, dreaming or deep sleep. I would lose complete consciousness of the external world. There would be no dreams, but it wasn't a complete void either. There were some faint cognitions, but there was no sense that "I was thinking." All egoic consciousness was absent. Most every meditation session was the same, and I would fall into this state almost instantly. This actually went on for a number of years. It was a very difficult time; I felt like a complete failure. Where were the exciting kriyas that I had experienced before? I now believe this stage was an experience of tandra, but I'm not entirely sure. Eventually, physically kriyas began to return. At first there were mostly hand mudras or jerks of the head. Then I began to naturally sit in Siddhasana pose. Moolabandha Bandha became quite frequent at this stage. It was followed by Uddiyana Bandha, and then by Jalandhara Bandha. Finally, all three would be held together, along with breath retention. This was very intense, and it would be accompanied by a tremendous amount of energy flowing through my body. At times is seemed overwhelming. I relayed this to a teacher under my guru who pointed me to the Yoga scriptures. Everything was outlined there in perfect detail, all in the correct order. Shortly after this (maybe 3-6 months), I began to experience Kechari Mudra. This is where the tongue turns back and enters the nasopharynx. It didn't happen all at once, but it didn't take long either. Once the tongue was fully situated in the nasopharynx, I experienced complete thoughtlessness for the first time. I was totally aware of everything in my body and environment, but the mind was absolutely still. It is around this time that I began to experience "nada." This is a sound that originates internally, without any external cause. I hear it constantly, like a high pitched buzzing. This has been ongoing for over two years now. There have been other kriyas along the way, some are mental rather than physical, and some are even emotional. There have been changes in thinking, desiring, and lifestyle choices, all naturally and without volition. Some of the more recent experiences are still too "fresh" to speak about. I feel like I need to digest them more before sharing. There is no doubt that I have omitted things, mostly out of a lapse in memory, but I will gladly answer any questions that you may have.

@Irina Wolf Here is an old thread that I started, which described some of my early experiences during meditation. Things are much different now, but no less fascinating ;-)

If you have reached a level that is beyond body and mind, then what remains? That is pure awareness. However, the mind is tricky, and it can create a subtle conceptualization of consciousness, which can in turn be mistaken for consciousness itself. I have heard of a few teachers speak of "dissolving the witness," and I think such a teaching can be useful if the student is guilty of the above. If someone tries to make global awareness into a discreet entity, then dismantling their concept of an individual witness could be very useful. For someone who understands that the witness is not an agent, this approach might be confusing. This is why I always recommend a skilled teacher to people, instead of just attempting to wake up through books or videos. There are nuances that need to be navigated around. Yes, I think we are in all likelihood describing the same thing. In Vedanta, realization is a two phased process. The first movement is from the non-Self to the Self. The inquirer must discriminate between what is their true identity and what are their false identities (all physical and mental objects). Ultimately, they will arrive at pure awareness, but as you have said, they may still not realize non-duality. In fact, they most likely will not. That is what takes place in the second phase. In phase two, everything that is not the Self (pure consciousness) is found to be false, like the horns of a rabbit. There is only pure consciousness, and that is non-duality.

Let me share what I have been taught, which squares with my experience. The witness, "sakshi" in sanskrit, is no different from the Self, or Atman. It is pure consciousness. It is that which is aware or knows. You can speak of pure experience, but there is no experience unless it is known. By it's very definition, it requires consciousness. Now the deluded intellect can conceptualize the witness and make it another object, but if the witness is witnessing another witness, you end up with an infinite regress. If you say there is no witness, you create an absurdity. It is equivalent to saying there is only unknown experience. It is true that the witness is not a discreet entity, which is a common mistake, but there are remedies for that, such as guided inquiry to "dissolve" the imagined boundaries. As for the ego, "ahamkara" in sanskrit, it is the sense of doership. It literally means "I doer." In the West it has a slightly different meaning, but it is still comparable, relating to agency or an actor.

The question of one or many is a thorny one, with a long history. I don't think it can be cleared away in a forum post, but I'll provide a few pointers. First, make a clear distinction between the mind and consciousness. There are many states of the mind (waking, dreaming, sleeping), but it is the same consciousness that illuminates them all. Consciousness is the "I" present throughout. It is unchanging. The mind is nothing more than a collective stream of thoughts, perceptions, etc. It is dependent upon time to exist, since it is time that separates one thought from another, just like space separates one object from another. Since it is consciousness that illuminates both time and space, it transcends both, so how can consciousness be divided by them? Since minds are in consciousness, they cannot condition consciousness, so minds cannot divide one consciousness from another. If there is nothing to divide one consciousness from another, how can it be more than one? We also have to consider the law of identity (a = a). Imagine consciousness devoid of all objects. How could you have 2 consciousness without objects, and they somehow be different consciousnesses? They would be identical in every way, and thus the same consciousness. You can also contemplate on the infinite nature of consciousness, and how the idea of two infinites creates an absurdity.

Granted, the word "spiritual" can be vague, and not everyone defines it the same. For some it could be seeing a ghost, and for others it could be a sudden loss of ego mind. I am really only concerned with the spiritual in the context of awakening to the Truth. I have no doubt that some people have had life changing trips on psychedelics; there are plenty of reports to attest to it. I also see no reason why people couldn't have legitimate spiritual awakenings while on drugs, but I don't see them as necessary or even as a better route. This is only my opinion. Obviously, other people feel differently about this subject. As I define awakening, there must be the direct consciousness of absolute knowledge. It has the flavor of remembering, and not so much of learning something new. It appears as both obvious and completely certain. Once seen, there is no way to doubt it. It resembles the knowledge of "I" or one's own existence, but the knowledge in awakening is more complete, clear, and less limited. Awakening can be accompanied by so much varied phenomena (overwhelming love and gratitude, explosions of "energy", a complete sense of peace and wellbeing, etc), but as wonderful as these can be, they are temporary and often a distraction from the real value, which is the knowledge that has arisen.

@Gregory1 I have tried other psychedelics, but not 5meo. I am both amused and saddened that they are what people consider as a spiritual experience. You have no way of knowing what I have seen.

@Breakingthewall No, I have not tried 5meo, but it's not required to see beyond the ego. Truth has more than just the ego as an obscuration.

Different people have different mind complexes, goals, needs, etc, so there are numerous techniques to accommodate everyone. It is difficult to know which technique to use, for how long, and to what intensity. This is why a knowledgeable teacher is necessary to guide you along the way. Another option is Sahaj Siddha Yog. In this path everything arises spontaneously, to just the right degree. Whatever is necessary for spiritual development will happen naturally, without any effort on your part. All that is required is a desire to self-realize and a willingness to surrender everything to the Absolute.

@Thought Art Neither gurus or chemicals are a direct experience of the truth. Ingesting a psychedelic is only a direct experience of taking a psychedelic, not of absolute truth. See the difference? Listening to a guru is also not a direct experience of absolute truth, but along the spiritual path there will be doubts and confusions that arise; a living guru can answer questions and offer guidance. That is not possible with other means. As to your initial question, yes, I have tried psychedelics, and as far as I can tell, they only provide another experience. Until you realize that all experiences are temporary, thus relative, you cannot grasp the absolute truth that is always present, regardless of passing states. Perhaps psychedelics can be a useful means for some. I can see that as a possibility, but I do not subscribe to the idea that they are a superior teacher.

The logical conclusion to, "Everything is within you," and "People are full of shit" is that you are full of shit. LOL It's hard to take people seriously people who are willing to bow to a toad, on all fours with a syringe up their ass, but think listening to the advice of accomplished guru is a bridge too far :-D At the absolute level you are perfect, unchanging, and never not awake, but at the relative level you are a less than perfect human searching for some shred of lasting happiness. A relative problem requires a relative solution. Truthfully, whatever leads you beyond the relative is your guru, but for most, this requires another living human being. A drug, book, or anything else that is inert may trigger an awakening, but it can never answer all your questions and clear all your doubts. There are exceptions, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're exceptional.

It's unfortunate that the guru/disciple relationship has been demonized in the West, even if it is understandable. A living teacher is indispensable for most seekers. Almost every other endeavor in human life necessitates a teacher, but somehow we foolishly believe we can figure out spirituality alone. It's not impossible, but unlikely. Try learning quantum physics or neurosurgery by watching YouTube or shopping on Amazon. Can you imagine how disastrous the results would be? Finding a qualified teacher can be challenging, but it will be worth the effort.