Shambhu

@RMQualtrough Essence is what it is to be something. Two things can have the same essence, but be different in appearance. Two trees share the same essence, "treeness", but they will appear different.

@WokeBloke They may all appear different, but they are all the same "mind stuff." When the mind dreams of a tree, are you suggesting the dream tree is something different from mind? If yes, then what? If no, then you admit the mind and the tree are one and the same. Change is an illusion that is dependent upon time, but time appears in that which does not change. Here again, the differences are only apparent. I suggest you take some time and actually contemplate the examples given. Don't try to make reality conform to your limited perspective. Be open to seeing what is true from all vantage points.

@WokeBloke When you dream at night, are the lights, sounds, and sensations all mind or are they all different from mind? There is relatively real and absolutely real. Anything that changes is relatively real. Think of an ice sculpture of a swan. What is more true, that it is water or that it is a swan? It is more true that it is water since it was water before it was a sculpture, while it was a sculpture, and after it was a sculpture. The more enduring truth is granted greater value. That which never changes is the absolute truth or reality. Imagine the creator before creation. What would he create from except himself?

@WokeBloke Non-dual teachings can very, but I'll offer some comments based on the traditional non-dual teachings of Yoga and Vedanta. The sanskrit word for non-dual is Advaita, which does literally mean "not two," and it is specifically used for the Self, or Atman. However, in Advaita Vedanta, there is only one Self. There are other schools that accepts multiple selves, but they typically don't have only the Self in their cosmology. For example, in the Sankhya, there are many selves, or Purushas, but there is also a singular Prakriti, often translated as nature. Therefore, Sanhkya is not considered a non-dual school of thought. I subscribe to Advaita Vedanta and the non-dual Yoga traditions (the Siddha school specifically), so I will comment from this vantage point. Yes, the Self and awareness (or consciousness) are synonymous. In Vedanta, there is only the Self, but it allows for distinctions. Look around your room and identify a few objects. How many did you see? The correct answer is one :-D All you ever see is one thing...light. Now think of dream you've experienced. Didn't it contain a myriad of people, places, and things? However, all of that was only one thing, the mind. Here is one last example. When you look into a mirror there many objects in the reflection, but the mirror is one alone. In this way, there is only ever one Self that projects a diversity of experiences. There is one more point to be made here. All of those distinctions are not real. By real I mean unchanging or enduring. There is only apparent multiplicity; it is not reality. Reality is one, changeless whole, and that you are.

A thing is considered objective when it is believed to exist independently outside the subject. So if I look at a tree, I believe that tree to exist outside of my consciousness, and I believe that it is not dependent upon me (or any other individual) to exist. However, when I examine the evidence, I find that my beliefs are ungrounded. All I know of that tree is the perception of colors, or possibly other sense data, which are subject experiences. Of course, when I see a tree, there is more going on than just the perception of colors. There is also the appearing of the idea "tree" that is associated with those colors and the forms created by those colors. Additionally, there is the belief that arises with it that the tree is external to myself, yet all of this is just a part of my subjective experience. The tree that I experience is nothing more than a collection of mental events.

I like what Edmund Husserl had to say about the subject. He claimed that objectivity is just another level of subjectivity. For example, we say that a thought is imminent, thus subjective, and a tree is transcendent, thus objective, but actually, what we call a tree is just another thing appearing within our own subjectivity. All we ever have access to is the subjective. Some things just have additional claims to objectivity.

What would an objective definition look like? :-)

From Oxford's Dictionary: 1. as good as it is possible to be. 2. absolute; complete

@happyhappy Anything that is infinite cannot change, since it includes all possibilities. Anything that cannot change is perfect, since it cannot be any other way and cannot be compared to before or after. Anything that is finite can (and does) change. Anything that can (and does) change can always be more or less perfect than before or after.

I can make a distinction between an image in the mirror and the mirror itself, but that doesn't mean there are actually two things there. If that were so, I could take the image and give you the mirror.

Awareness is self evident. Being aware proves it's existence. It is not an object to be seen; it is the seer. To answer your questions more directly, I am aware of awareness, and what you call stuff I also call awareness.

Doubting awareness would itself be evidence for awareness. How can you doubt something you are not aware of?

If you said there was a picture of a cat on your mug, then it would be literal, or if there was an actual cat was on your mug, then that would be literal.

@Mason Riggle I'm not sure where your quote was from, but here are the basic definitions. met·a·phor A figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. lit·er·al taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

Words can obviously be literal; otherwise, everything said is a metaphor for some other meaning. If they point to something that cannot be pointed to, then they aren't really pointing are they? You are basically robbing language of all meaning and making communication impossible. If you are your body, then there have been many Gregory1's. The body you have now is not the same body you had at age 6. All the cells in the body are replaced every 10 years. If you are your body, and you lost a finger, then there would be less of you. See how that doesn't make sense?

I do not follow Sadhguru, but I would be surprised if his words were not literal. This is the traditional teaching of both Yoga and Vedanta, and it is emphatic in those systems.

@Mason Riggle Oops. Sorry about that.

@Mason Riggle In the traditional text, Drg Drisya Viveka, by Shankaracharya, there is a self-inquiry progression that might help with this question. It can be found in the very first verse. 1. The object of sight is perceived and the eye is its perceiver. The eye is perceived and the mind is its perceiver. The mind with its modifications is perceived and the Witness (the Self) is verily the perceiver, but It (the Witness) is not perceived (by any other). The remainder of the text is worth a study as well. http://www.vivekananda.net/PDFBooks/Others/DrgDrsyaViveka1931.pdf Swami Sarvapriyananda also does an excellent job of teaching from this text. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLffj4m28VxZAe6uE-ZuI_8LmAJupCBgxz

I'm asking how does any of your experience, shared or otherwise, give any valid proof that the nature of reality is physical? You claim there is something "out there," but all you have is an experience "in here." How do you know what's "in here" matches what is "out there?" How do you even know for sure there is something out there at all? You also feel certain the world is physical, but all you have is non-physical evidence (your own subjective experience which appears in your mind). The question of one or many minds is problematic enough, so I suggest laying it aside for the moment. Imagine you are the lone, surviving living being in the universe. There are no other humans remaining. There isn't even a cat, cockroach, or coronavirus left. How do you prove that everything around you is material?

@liamnewsom202 Everything that you just mentioned as "proofs" could be experienced in a dream, and a dream is obviously not physical. If it is not proof in a dream, how is it proof while waking? Every perception you experience is in the mind only. It's all subjective. How can a subjective experience ever prove the existence of something outside of it?

@vladorion There is no duality. There is only the mirror.

The imagine in the mirror is not other than the mirror, but a mirror is not an image. A wave does not exist without the ocean, but the ocean is not a wave. When you dream of a starry night, the sky is nothing other than the mind that dreams it, but the mind is not a dream of the night sky. Consciousness is the substance of which experiences are only modes, to borrow some terminology from Spinoza. Even though experiences are nothing other than consciousness, the experiences themselves are not conscious. The experiences are dependent upon consciousness, but consciousness is not dependent upon the experiences. It's just like the sky in a dream. The sky is nothing other than the dream, but the dream sky is not itself dreaming.

@dearleo123 What evidence do you have for an objective, physical reality?

@RMQualtrough I would not say the chair I'm sitting on now is a different chair from the one I was sitting on 10 seconds ago either, but that doesn't prove there is only 1 chair in existence. I'm not saying you are right or wrong about the number of minds; I'm only saying your logic does not offer proof of your conclusion. @Leo Gura Agreed. The human mind is not infinite, so it can have another. Do you agree that at the relative level (where distinctions are experienced), that there are more than one mind?

For over a decade, I have practiced a somewhat rare form of meditation. My original guru called it Shaktipat Kundalini Yoga, Sahaja Yoga, or simply Surrender Meditation. My current guru calls it Sahaja Siddha Yoga, which can be translated as "Naturally Perfecting Yoga." I thought I would start a thread that documented some of my early experiences and conversations with my original guru, which took place over a few months following my initiation , so that others can see what type of experiences are possible with meditation. None of these experiences indicate any spiritual attainments; they are just part of the process, which can vary from one person to another. I would also like to point out that none of these experiences are the goal of meditation, only side effects. One last note, the examples below typically happen in the beginning or middle, but not so much toward the end of the path. Eventually, it evolves into something quite different. -------- FEBRUARY 5, 2012 AT 11:09 AM Dear Durga Ma, For the past two days, I have increased my meditation to two hours. I am experiencing fewer asanas, pranayama, and mudras, but I am shifting into a dream state more frequently. Also, I have this experience that to me feels like an (energy) egg breaking and the contents running down my body. Sometimes it also starts low and runs up my body. It is both subtle and pleasant. This morning I became cold and uncomfortable, so I willfully wrapped myself in a blanket and changed positions. I felt guilty for not maintaining pure surrender, but I tried to abandon my sense of defeat to God and simply return to my meditation. After that I fell into a deep sleep. I usually dream in black and white, but I suddenly realized I was seeing everything in vivid color. It was like I was looking at a brilliant movie screen. I became lucid and spent some time mesmerized at random images appearing before my eyes. I started flying between buildings in what I believed was New York at night. Then I had this sensation that I was separating from my body, and I became frightened. I tried to move my body in order to wake up, but I couldn’t. A few moments later my timer went off, and I was perfectly awake and able to move about. Some times I wonder if I’m simply having a common dream or if something more unique is taking place during my meditation. Today felt different, even if I don’t know the meaning. Love, Shambhu Isn’t the mind fascinating? You were surrendered in meditation, and because you were cold and did something about it you thought you were using your will. The feelings of guilt and defeat were also just mental kriyas. The experiences you had after this were produced by surrender. The sensation of separating from your body was probably caused not so much by becoming separated, but by returning to the body from that little jaunt you took to New York. The images before that may suggest an early stage of samadhi. Your meditation is going very well. — Love, Durga Ma FEBRUARY 25, 2012 AT 4:26 PM Dear Durga Ma, I am continuing to spend two hours each morning in meditation; the time seems to be equally spent between activity and nidra. Most of the activity is mudras and contractions in the abdomen and chest. Often I will fall into a sleeping state only to be awaken by kryias or pranayamas. Several times I have had experiences like I explained previously were I become immobile or can only move with great difficulty (only to later discover I didn’t actually move at all). This morning I had three terrifying dreams while meditating. Then I had the experience were I couldn’t move, and I even found it difficult to breath. I realized that I wasn’t in my physical body and that there was no need to breath, so I relaxed and let things naturally unfold. At one point I saw frightening images (distorted faces) and symbols. I reminded myself that I was in God’s hands and continued to surrender to the Absolute. Since my meditation this morning I have felt completely exhausted. I even had some caffeine, which I rarely drink anymore, and I still feel like I can’t fully wake up. I am committed to my sadhana (I even with I could devote more time), but I still have doubts or guilt at times. My mind questions if I have surrendered enough, if I am sleeping too much, if I should be sleeping more, etc. Logically, I know it is only thoughts without any basis in reality, but they are present just the same. It is like you have said, this practice is both easy and hard. It requires no effort, but you don’t always know what the Divine is up to. Regardless, I trust both God and guru, for they are the same. Love, Shambhu Thank you for sharing this, Shambhu. I am sure that many practitioners of this sadhana will run into things of this sort. This sadhana is not for the faint-hearted. It is for the spiritual adventurer who is hungry enough for Truth/the Absolute to put up with a few unfamiliar or unexplainable things happening in meditation (they have a way of becoming understood after the fact, sooner or later). I see these kinds of experiences as auspicious in spite of any confusion or doubt, especially when that practitioner is resolved to continue with such faith and trust. Love, Durga Ma FEBRUARY 25, 2012 AT 12:12 PM Dear Durga Ma, Thank you for that reply. My resolve is firm. I once asked you how far I can go with this, and you told me, “All the way.” I believed you, and I won’t stop short of the Absolute Truth. Love, Shambhu MARCH 13, 2012 AT 11:50 AM Dear Durga Ma, I’m persisting each day with 2 hours of meditation. Movement continues to dissolve into stillness, with only a quiver every now and again. Occasionally, I experience very lucid dreams. The last such encounter started by the sensation that my body was rotating on the floor. At the time, I actually believed that this was physically taking place. I even thought I heard the sound of the blanket underneath me being moved; I was afraid that the noise from the rustling fabric would wake my wife in a nearby room. After my body ceased from spinning, a strong vibration coursed through the center of my body; afterwords, I felt my whole being continue to shake. I then realized that I was no longer in a normal waking state. With some difficulty, I moved around and even opened an adjacent door. Once I was convinced that this was a dream of an unusual sort, I cried out to God for the direct experience of Truth. The memory of the event is fading, but the cry is growing stronger. One of the most difficult aspect of this meditation for me is not always knowing what is or is not taking place. Sometimes I feel as if I should be experiencing more of this or less of that; the devil is in the mind. I feel guilt for not achieving expectations that have no basis in reality; the devil is in the mind. In the midst of all this, the cry to God rises from deep within. “I don’t care about what I experience or don’t experience; give me Truth.” My body lies still, but I feel energy moving head to toe and from sole to crown. I face doubt, guilt, and disappointment…the cry grows louder. I feel defeated, abandoned, and alone…the cry grows louder still. My timer chimes; I give thanks, and I wonder what lies ahead… Love, Shambhu Well, Shambhu, you are certainly on board! Welcome to a very small group of like-minded, devil-minded seekers wondering where we are in all this, crying out to God for more, and so on. I have been crying out — literally — in my “sleep” and waking myself up with all the racket. The other night I had two dreams (the content of which I remember absolutely nothing) in which I understood these dreams while I was still “sleeping” and twice (once for each dream) woke myself up ecstatically announcing, “I’m married to God! I’m really and truly married to God! I’ve always been married to God! I’ll always be married to God!” and “Jaya Ma! Jaya Ma!” I was wondering . . . that whole spinning thing is very familiar to me and what I was wondering was if this was itself a direct experience that may not have seemed to be, because the content of the experience did not seem like “God”, i.e., spinning, the sound of moving blankets, wife next door, etc. Or maybe you were just really spinning and doing it out of body. Ah, sweet yogic dreams. Let yourself be inspired by these experiences. God, Divine Mother, is behind all this. Love, Durga Ma MARCH 13, 2012 AT 12:40 PM Dear Durga Ma, Thank you for your words; they are always full of encouragement. This experience of spinning has manifested more than once, and it usually precedes a lucid dream, as does the experience of vibrations and shaking. The first time was frightening, as many new and usual experiences have been, but I am continually learning to trust God. The Absolute is at work, and it’s work is perfection. Love, Shambhu APRIL 13, 2012 AT 7:22 AM Dear Durga Ma, I continue to spend 2 hours in sahaja meditation each morning. I am considering changing my meditation time to the two hours before I retire at night. It seems that people are starting to rise in my house at an earlier hour, and it provides more noise for distraction. Also, my wife will be out of town this weekend, so I am giving some serious thought to spending more than two hours in meditation for the next two days, unless you advise otherwise. Movement is continuing to diminish during meditation, with only a shake, stretch, or occasional mudra appearing throughout. Part of the time is almost always spent in sleep, but I find that the unusual dream states I described previously are happening less frequently. Now, most dreams appear to me as the typical variety. I do feel a constant wave of “energy” washing over my body during meditation. It moves up and down and from left to right; it is very pleasant, and it reminds me of the “chills” I experienced when involved with the Pentecostal church. My mind is still active, but not as chaotic as it once was. Also, my thoughts have become more inquisitive. By that I mean, I am noticing where my awareness is flowing from and where it is flowing to; then I inquire into the what and the why of the mental activity. This is also true of my time outside of meditation. It’s not that I’m making a special effort to question these things. It just feels natural. When I’m not meditating, I find that I am working to organize my life to optimize those times that I am in meditation. Those two hours in the morning are the most exciting, anticipated, important times of my day. JUNE 5, 2012 AT 7:35 AM Dear Durga Ma, I haven’t shared lately, but this morning I felt like it was time. I have gained a great deal of encouragement and insight from this site, and I hope that by sharing my experience others will benefit as well. For the past month or more my meditation has been compromised mostly if not completely of sleep. At times the sleep is so deep that I find it difficult to be aroused. Often there are dreams, but they seem common enough. Sometimes I feel the movement of energy flowing through my body, and just as often I hear my heart cry out to God. My mind accuses me of failure, and in darkness I ask for grace. OF course, everything is just as it should be, and I have God’s grace in you. There is no experience more proper for me to have than the one that is before me, and the truest part of me knows the joy of both the bitter and the sweet. It is all the play of the Divine. Love, Shambhu JULY 28, 2012 AT 9:14 AM Dear Durga Ma, It has been a while since I shared, and this morning it felt like it was time again. For the past week I have been experiencing a great number and variety of pranayamas and some very strong experiences of kumbhakas. The holds are definitely more powerful than I have experienced in the past. There are also some facial grimacing and pressure in the forehead region. The experience of “energy” traveling through my body is less pronounced and nidra is less predominant, but some time is still spent in sleep. I don’t discern anything noteworthy of the dreams when they occur. Aside from the physical phenomenon, and perhaps even greater in terms of intensity, I am experiencing a very deep and powerful longing for God. It’s like being separated from a lover who desperately desire to be reunited with. This emotion arises almost immediately when I enter my mediation, and it endures through most of my time there. It drives me very close to tears, and it even reappears to a lesser degree throughout the day. Additionally, there is some spontaneous inquiry taking place. I’m facing things I’ve become identified with, thinking they were me. Intellectually, I thought I knew better, but in practical application, I was falling into old traps. I rest in the grace of God and Guru, and I pray for continued grace to surrender more fully, love more completely, and to know the truth directly. Love, Shambhu