Forza21

I don't understand bro?

As many of you know, i've had a very rough time with the latest trip/ awakening. I see it as, i've fallen into the "ego-trap" of solipsism, and now i understand "classic solipsism" as " only my ego exists, everything else is imaginary". Which is of course huge misunderstanding. All my suffering in life, was nothing but a joke, compared to what i've been through lately. Seriously. I was a mentally stable person, but i totally underestimated what i was capable of going through. Be careful what you're getting into. I have big compassion for all people out there, who, just like me, fell, or will fall, into this hell abyss. So, here are some quotes, of beautiful souls of this forum, which helped me so much, with going through this. It helped me reframe this topic. I have no idea, what would i do without you guys. i want to sincerely thank you, for all the help, all the support, here on forum, and on the PM's. There was much, much, more than in this topic, but i can't include everything. Those are quotes, i've saved in my notepad, to read in the worst moments. THANK YOU GUYS. I really, really, love you all! Hope, one day, it will help someone else. In enlightenment, you're dead. There's no you left. You have realized that you are nothing, and everything is nothing. And don't let people fool you when they hear someone say "there's no you" and then they immediately reply "yes, you do exist!! you are everything!!" Well I got news for you: yes, you are everything. But in many of these cases, that "everything" can very well be a projection of ego onto a "larger" self, which is the case in normal solipsism. It's a case of "inflation", where the ego simply latches on to the finite mind and then claims it & itself (it projects itself onto the whole of finite experience) to be God as in "finite consciousness is everything there is". No-Self is probably the central insight - and of course, No-self has many "aspects" to it, like Love, Infinity, Everything... If Infinity doesn't mean "No-Self", then it's not Infinity and not enlightenment. Infinity simply means "no boundaries". It doesn't (just) mean "all possible experiences at once" (there are no "all possible experiences", strictly speaking), which is what some poeple believe the word to mean. Consciousness (you) are infinite as in: you have no boundaries and no limits, in no dimension. That's where the whole omnipotence / omnipresence stuff comes from, and of course, it's true. Consciousness is omnipresent (or as Shunyamurti says: "omnicentral"). Same goes for Love; No-Self = Love So yeah. Solipsism is based on a self. And this self can assume vast dimensions and make claims like "I am God" without actually knowing God, but instead just projecting itself onto finite experience and thereby claiming that to be everything there is (I am everything, as this finite "bubble", this is all there is). It's a highly dualistic doctrine. Enlightenment = No-Self, which is the same as God - and if No-Self isn't emphasized by whoever claims to know God, I'd be very suspicious... No-Self = No boundaries (Infinity), no finite "bubble", no "figments of imagination", no "POV", none of that. Also, No-Self = no problem. So there's no "though pill to swallow". So long as there is, you're missing something... Missing something!!, not "got something wrong". You might got things right, but only partially, hence the feeling of "having to face the Truth". Which inevitably will be the case, almost nobody gets all of it in one fell swoop, so keep going until there's neither you nor problems left. You ARE the Truth, there's nothing for you to face. @Tim R guess this whole solipsism issue boils down to what you identify with: A) Relative domain/ego -> This can be a huge trap. Beliving that my separate self or POV is the only thing in existence and other people are just figments of my imagination. Actually a belief which has the power to drive you insane. B) Absolute/God -> Well, this is the truth. Can't really be conceptualized and highly paradoxical. Nahm summarized it perfectly by saying "We're all alone together". @nistake You might not like it, but here we go again, because this is where confusion easily arises... "the only one that can awaken" is misleading... so is "you are God". I mean, who is the "you" that can be God? There isn't one... there is only God/Love/Reality. It's not a someone, a you or a me that it could be. It's not localized anywhere, it's not behind the eyes, it doesn't have a POV, it's nothing. This is the realization that is missing, if not from the direct experience of most who are on this forum, then at least from the communication that takes place here on a daily basis. @Gili Trawangan In fact, let me rant a little bit here. I would bet my left nut that there are more people here on the forum and in Leo's following who think they're awakened, but are actually delusional solipsists who believe their finite mind to be the whole of reality because their un-integrated spiritual ego has totally corrupted the mechanism by which they sought/seek Truth, namely what they perceived to be "direct experience", but which, because of the corruption, is not at all direct experience, but a perception of reality filtered and (mis-)interpreted through the finite ego-mind (I've talked about this extensively yeterday in Someone Here's post) that then proceeded to inflate itself and latch itself onto "experience". @Tim R If I think "I'm alone in the Universe". "My mom/wife/brother/whatever is not real". My emotions are immediately, directly saying "FUCK NO!" and I'm like "NO but I've BEEN TOLD BY THE WISE MASTER that I'm alone in the universe. I'm intelligent! I'm woke! I'm not a normie!" I'm not listening to my emotions. So I suffer. Suffer. Suffer. "I'm gonna get it! I'm gonna push through this wall!" Nope. You aren't. That wall just isn't there @mandyjw This is the numbest, dumbest realization out there. Nothing changes. There already aren't other people. Put your hand on a surface. Without thinking is there two sensations, one of "my" hand and one of "the surface". Or is it in the direct feeling ONE borderless sensation. Likewise Love is just plain borderless. This has always been. Always will be. You don't go around denying the existence or validity of people. Maybe you see them for the first time, your heart bursts open and you can't stop crying about how fucking beautiful the previously fat bitchy post office lady suddenly is seen to be, but other than kinda thing day in day out everyday, no big deal! Jesus people. It's that fucking simple. Everybody love everybody! -Will Ferrell "Love one another" - Jesus There ya go. @mandyjw Part of the problem is that solipsism is already defined. And as its been defined in the past by philosophers, its extremely misleading and NOT absolute truth. “Solipsism” in that way essentially means “my ego is all that exists”. Lol @aurum There is no one to be all alone. The ego co-opts awakening and claims ownership of God. There isn't a 'you', Reality/God is beyond being a self or not a self. It's infinite, it can appear as a self or as many selves whilst never actually being anything. These are thoughts that are being believed, you're too caught up in this forum's narrative. Truth is love, peace and happiness. There isn't 'other', but what's being missed is that there isn't a 'self' either. @Gili Trawangan You have to be careful about how you are using your mind here. Notice that a lot of mental activity is going on -- thinking -- and this thinking is putting you into negative states. This is not awakening nor consciousness, this is the ego-mind at work. Your mind is trying to compensate for lack of consciousness and awakening by coming up with philosophical conclusions and stories about reality. A thought like "I don't exist" is NOT awakening, nor is it high consciousness. I recommend a few things: 1) Stop thinking about this stuff so much and instead do a meditation practice like mindfulness with labeling so that you bust out of your mental masturbation. You have to learn to step outside your thoughts and observe them. Thinking about thinking is not the same thing as stepping outside of thinking and observing it. Taking your thinking too seriously is the fundamental problem here. 2) Make a rule with yourself that no matter how much you suffer or what you think, you will never physically harm yourself. 3) Make sure you create a fulfilling life for yourself before you go deep into spiritual seeking. Ground your life in normal stuff like career, life purpose, fitness, healthy eating, socialization, sex, relationships, friendships, learning, etc. 4) If you're going into spirituality have a rigorous practice that you do, not just thinking about spirituality. Thinking about spirituality is NOT a spiritual practice. @Leo Gura Solipsism is based on a duality, namely that of self (or: "consicous") and other (or "unconscious"). Consciousness is not centralized/localized, it is not inside your head, it is not exclusive to you, it is not exclusive to other people, it is not something on can either have or not have, one can neither "be conscious" or on the other hand, "be unconscious". There is no "your POV". It's an illusion, i.e. it seems like there is one, but there actually isn't. Consciousness is omicentral, it's everywhere. You are not conscious, other people, animals, plants, rocks, mountains, whatever, they are not unconscious either. The universe is consciousness. The whole of it. And everything and everyone in it is consciousness, but it's not what you think it is. You think of consciousness as this bubble of appearances, that's not at all what consciousness in and of itself is. @Tim R I know, I know, it hurts... But it is an illusion, a misunderstanding. She is as much consciousness as you are. The only thing left for you to understand is that you, as an ego, as the centralized consciousness that you currently believe yourself to be, are an illusion - the same of course applies to other human beings. What some people, including me, mean when they say "others don't exist", is exactly that; namely, that people don't exist as these centers of awareness - however, we all do exist as a singular field of consciousness, and it's possible to become aware of this. And then, Solipsism is solved. Beause you finally see that 1) you don't exist as an ego 2) others don't exist as egos 3) we all are one consciousness Even to speak of a "we" is already saying too much, because it implies "many". But that's for another day. If a so called "insight" makes you more miserable than before, that is a very solid indicator for you that you got something wrong, you missed something. That my friend, is good fucking news. @Tim R Ukrainian people, you, us, others, Leo, are creations of consciousness. Consciousness is uncreated or in other words infinity - because its not a thing, just the 'space' and more, for anything to happen. The quality of that 'space' is actually what everything is made of too. So that is what You are. It's asking yourself "Who am I?" and then you answer conventionally "I am Forza21", but then you ask again "Who am I beneath Forza21?" and then your answer is no thought - pure Consciousness - thats what we as living things actually are. When Form/creation appears within consciousness, it becomes distinct from consciousness by other forms/creation. Consciousness doesn't create distinctions that is why there is no you or me. Although I will add, paradoxically, Consciousness does create distinctions through its creation. That is why there is a you and me talking on this forum. In summary, everything is still real + you know the Truth. The One in you, is greater than the out in the world. and that One in us all, is the same. Hopefully that makes sense. @SgtPepper As a matter of direct experience, there are no others. There is only the aggregation of sight, taste, touch, sound, smell, and mind. As a matter of becoming directly conscious of what one is, it is experienced that the consciousness "inside of me" must be the same consciousness "inside of another." Why? Because this consciousness is completely pure, complete without quality or form. When looking into another being's eyes and questioning what they are, we can come to directly realize this consciousness looking out of each other's eyes shares the exact same nature and therefore by necessity, must be the same consciousness. It is paradoxical and a mindfuck. When one directly experiences Absolute Unity, all is seen to be one. It's not that other's don't exist. And it's not that you exist. And it's not that I exist. It's not that you are me, or I am you, nor is it that you are God and I am God. It's that there is a movement of infinite unity, and interdependency. The activity in one's mind is at the end of an infinite, interconnected chain of causes and conditions giving rise to outcomes and effects. All movements of relative reality interpenetrate and connect with all other movements of relative reality, at all levels. The personality cannot be separated from this totality. So when it's seen that there is no such thing as 'the' "personality" or the self, that the self is just a purely spontaneous movement, when we TRULY experience our real nature, what we are on all levels of relativity and absolutely cannot be separate from anything or anyone else. This is Solipsism. But that word and its philosophical implications are a poor conceptual framework for the unity I speak of. When the ego mind intellectualizes this, all kinds of resistances, fears, and twisted interpretations arise. When consciousness awakens to its own nature, a reservoir of endless compassion begins to open. Why? Because the suffering of another is, to some degree, experienced as one's own suffering. The suffering we find within ourselves is the suffering underneath the mind activity of other. There is no separation. There is no duality. When we see the necessity of alleviating our own suffering in order to come into union with truth, we see the necessity in alleviating the suffering of others, and perhaps all beings. For it is impossible to truly end our own suffering and therefore truly awaken to our true nature as long as a single being remains lost in Samsara. At least, this seems to be where my experience is going. @Consilience This is exactly why teachers like Rupert Spira reject solipsism, because people misunderstand it. It's generally a really bad pointer. It's also so ridiculously ironic that people have lately started shitting on the lessons of Neo-Advaita, because it's exactly what is needed to not misunderstand absolute solipsism. You are not your body-mind. You are infinite consciousness imagining body-minds. Infinite consciousness is alone, because there is nothing outside of infinity. @Carl-Richard Realizing how Creation is perfect, how Oneness is perfect, realizing that it is the best way it could be. Because it means that God is Whole, One and not seperated. You are literally all of Infinity, all of God right now, If you realize this on deeper levels you will realize the Perfectness and Love and Bliss and Beauty that Leo mentioned. Also, You are Infinity, so every person that could ever exist within Infinity is right here. Every possible human, animal, alien and universe shapeshifted into your bubble, became the substance of your bubble, become you, is you. You as God will keep dreaming and shapeshifting for ever, so from a relative perspective, all these other dreams, all these other forms exist too, and from that perspective you also aren't alone. @GreenWoods i also want to thank @Kksd74628 for all the love and support on priv and @Inliytened1 for all the love and explantations, even though i'm not ready for it love!! Forza21

@Gili Trawangan @VeganAwake @SgtPepper @WelcometoReality @Breakingthewall @Tim R That's what i was talking about, when i said, i meet here wonderful people here. <3 i want to sincerely thank ALL of you, from the bottom of my heart. Your each explanation really help me with going through this, and it means word to me. Seriously, you have no idea how much it helps. THANK YOU beautiful souls! <3 <3 @Inliytened1 I want to thank you too. I know you're doing your best, but my ego isn't ready for your communication, and im always scared when i see your replies.

Honestly, i try HARD to take a break, but my mind is still creating these thoughts and problems, like " are these people real or not?" Can't stop thinking about it, can't go back to normal life, so at least i try my best to make sense of it. But many topics creates only more confusion, and more paranoia. Yeah it's kinda rough time, and i was pretty sane and mentally stable person. I regret latest trip. I have no idea what i've done wrong to get into this, instead of realization of love, i get fear and it draggs me down. BUT i meet wonderful people here anyway. At least i'm thankful for that.

I've been trying to figure this out for some time, and it leads me only to suffering. I strongly recommend you stop thinking about it conceptually, whatever explanation you get, it won't be sufficient, and it will create confusion over time. Trust me. I've been there.

I don't know it's easier to grasp, when we say that there's only CONSCIOUSNESS. There's no you, no me. There's no "dream characters" . And most important, there's no "conscious" or "unconscious" people, there's only consciousness. Today for example, i feel terrible again, because i have many thoughts like "people in Ukraine are just images of my mind" . I Want to feel compassion towards others/myself, and that narration, and solipsysm stuff is fucking me up i feel like it's killing my love, instead of increasing it. How do u see it?

So: From my POV you don't have existence. From your POV i don't have existence. From your POV, your dream is absolute, and i'm dream character. From my POV, me dream is absolute, and you are dream character. is that right? And if we assume, that i don't want to be awake, and we are speaking only relative/human way, we both have existence? ;-)

@Inliytened1 I kindly ask, What about my question ?:)

Can you feel sorry for those people in Ukraine? Today, as my horror came back, I feel terrible for thoughts like "there are just imagines in my mind" it's opposite of love. I want compassion. I strive for love. I want to help them. How come i have thoughts like that?

I still suffer a little bit of it... the way its communicated on this forum, seems so off, and wrong... i would be super careful what you're getting into when stepping here...

@Inliytened1 as relative as you can. As grounded as you can. As seen from the illusion as you can. I'm NOT talking about GOD/ONE/ABSOLUTE perspective. I'm talking 100% about RELATIVE perspective. Human perspective. 1) do you think my ego-mind (which is illusory, yes, but i'm not talking about that) experience something? do you think me, as small "i" , me as Forza21, have experience? 2)do your ego-mind, do your small "self" as @Inliytened1 experience something? Please don't give me answers like " it's all you" "you are god imagine me" itd, i'm talking 100000% relative. Yes we are one, but as it comes to relative sense, my finite/limited mind knows something, yours don't, so we can interact. Why get rid of the beauty of it?

Super interesting post! I love meditation, and i keep 1h a day from more than a year, for some weeks it was 2h-3h~~ a day. Also solo retreats. I'm becoming more skeptical about psychedelics. My recent trip was pure solipsism hell, and i think it's too much wisdom to handle. Daily practice humbles you down, and it dissolves your ego. It's slower way,sure, but i think it might be a solution for me in the long run. I had a terrible time with integrating recent psychedelic trip. my questions are: Do you still use psychedelics? What's your meditation exactly, with closed/open eyes? what's the difference for you? Thanks!:) @btw if it comes to Leo, i don't get it. His videos are brilliant, but here on forum he's harsh. Everything is imaginary, including him. Those statements are unclear, and sometimes it puts me into solipsistic terror. I'm thinking about stepping back off forum too.

i believe u said many times that either "its only my pov" or "theres no pov". ? U meant there are many povs of one, but not at the same time?

ISness IS, there are no boundaries, no location, no room, no space.

Appreciate it bro!