Consept

A good analogy for this is if you want to be car salesmen and get lots of sales do you ask a successful salesmen or do you ask the people that have bought cars from him? Now, there is value in asking the buyers as they could communicate what they liked about the buying experience and why they chose to buy from that particular salesman above others, but they wouldnt really know exactly what techniques he was using. Buying from a really good salesperson almost doesnt feel like youre being sold to at all, that is what makes a good salesperson, he builds rapport makes you feel comfortable etc. But the buyers are not privy to the behind the curtain of what hes actually doing. If you learnt directly from the salesmen, he could tell you exactly what he does and how you could replicate that, the buyer would not be able to do that as they dont actually know. This is the same with men attracting women, a lot of the time if you ask a women why they chose a guy the answers are typically quite vague. A personal experience i had was going to speed dating and being chosen by a woman, when i asked her why she chose me out of 25 other guys, she said because I was 'just normal'. Obviously it wouldnt be great advice to tell a guy just be 'normal', that wouldnt really teach him anything. Of course what she probably meant was you came across authentic, built up a good rapport, had confidence, werent awkward etc. But she has no need to think about it that deeply to work out why, same way a car buyer has no need to work out why the seller was good, they just know they got their dream car. This doesnt mean that a woman cant give advice of course, but they would really have to think deeply about it and theres just not that much need for them to do so, so most dont.

Its more about being authentic with yourself, its not something you have to do of course it's only if you do want to get better with talking to girls or people in general. If you're being authentic and there's someone you're genuinely interested in then you would want to talk to them. You may feel fear as you're not used to doing it but it's something you want to do. So then your choice is to give into fear and not do it or challenge the fear and do it. Its totally up to you. Think about a 5 year old kid that wants to play with another kid they don't know, they're not thinking 'what am I getting out of this interaction and what is the kpi of this', theyre just thinking 'that person looks fun I'm gonna ask them to play'. It's not more complicated with people, you're basically just having fun with people. How you choose to approach is if you feel like it will be fun to approach. I don't really subscribe to the 1000 approach but I think it's a really good habit to talk to people you don't know generally, as it helps with social skills, it's fun, you might meet a long term friend or partner. The only downside is rejection which you'll get desensitised to anyway

If you read what I put in the last paragraph I said you don't have to go put specifically to pick up as many women as possible. Ideally you want to incorporate into your normal life and places you would go anyway. So for example if you go to the gym a d see a girl you find attractive then go and talk to her or on the train on the way to work etc. No ones saying blindly approach every girl, that would be ridiculous. If it was part of your routine and you approached even one a day on average you hit a thousand in less than 3 years. A thousand is obviously an arbitrary number but the idea is to just do it and get better. Obviously you would be better after this 3 years than you were before, I dont think there's any question.

I don't see why this is complicated. Obviously any skill you want to learn requires practice and repetition. I think people make posts like this because of the emotion behind it, social skills and attraction skills is often seen as 'you have it or you don't'. But these skills are as teachable as any other skill. Imagine someone made a post like - 'the church of learning guitar says you need a thousand hours to become good. My question is why not a million? Is there any reason why there should be this magnitude of hours to learn guitar?'. I would just conclude that you don't want to put in the hours learning guitar. Just to caveat I don't think you should necessarily go out specifically to pick up women but you should definitely practice approaching in your day to day life as well as having more social interactions in general. Desensitisation is good if its something you fear, its literally the treatment for phobias.

This is why I'm not really interested in skiing, everyone who does it usually picks up an injury

Your parents may have been dysfunctional but I'm not sure the example is necessarily indicative of that. It's not like people are robots and it's very possible that a child could make their parent upset, you can't remember what you said but it could've been hurtful. Also your mother could've just told your father but not expected him to tell you about it, she could've just said jav said 'something hurtful to me don't say anything to him'. If she was going to manipulate you it could've been directly at you from her, like guilt tripping or stonewalling you or something like that. Your dad could have handled a bit better maybe talking it through with you etc but I'm guessing that's not something he does. But don't get me wrong you could have 1000 concrete examples of them being narcissistic and they could be. I'm just saying this particular example doesn't confirm it. Generally though, I think we can be a bit harsh on our parents, from whatever consciousness they're at they are trying their best. Some are of course very toxic and there's no way around that, but it's important to be able to look at things as objectively as possible.

Well theres 2 sides to peoples response to you, one is questioning your "bad views", so this as im sure you understand would be a normal response to the prejudice you hold. This would be the same if someone posted on here that they dont like black people or men or muslims for whatever reason. Essentially this position doesnt really work because it generalises a group of people around a negative perspective of a stereotype, for example you dont like pretty women because you think they are all arrogant. Its the same as saying you dont like black people because theyre all criminals, obviously generalisations are wrong because you wouldnt have interacted with every pretty woman or black person so there is no way you could make a statement like that. So because you are "wrong" people will of course challenge your position, which you cant really defend and i guess youre not defending it youre just saying you should be allowed to have 'bad views' without having to defend them, which begs the question why even post about said views where people would disagree? The second side which can exist parallel to the above is that people see the issue you have is internal to you and want to help, either to make themselves feel better or just to genuinely help someone, probably a mixture of both. This makes sense because you are on a self-development forum, so obviously if you post something that reeks of inner turmoil you will get advice that is deeper and directed at your inner self. Again your rejection of this advice doesnt really follow as it seems obvious if you post what your posting you will get that kind of response. In fact youre lucky that people are not just condeming you for your beliefs bat are actually taking the time to try and reach you. My advice would be actually take in and listen to what people say in response to you or just dont post this type of stuff as i dont see what you aim to get out of it. Youre either crying out for help or youre looking for validation for 'bad views' or youre just looking for attention.

What parts do you disagree with?

The reality is @bebotalk hates these women because he wants them but doesnt feel worthy, so lashing out is a way to gain power over a sutuation where he feels powerless. If he can make these women feel bad or feel any emotion he has exerted power and also in someway gained some kind of connection with them. The problem he will find is that he will constantly live on this state of hatred and self defence. For the women maybe it'll annoy them for a day, for him he will be in this negative emotion indefinitely, so much so that the longer it goes the harder it will be to get out. How he feels inside will be reflected back to him as he pushes these women to go down to his level. This will be the ongoing consequences for this type of mentality and unless he recognises this and makes effort to change he will be doomed to go through this. I'm not sure anyone's words can pull him out it's really on him to go through this, but if he does want out I'm sure many will help him

Yeah I'm not gonna lie it did work on me

I dunno I'm 39 and still going strong

It's usually indirect, so like a girl will look directly at me for slightly too long or even smile or do something as an invite to come and talk to her. This is basically a female approach, it can be very difficult to read because it can be so subtle, in their mind they're are literally approaching you, whereas in our mind we mightve blinked and missed it or just not been paying attention. I have had girls just come directly up to me and basically try and chat me up, more when I was younger. Girls game is terrible btw if they had to approach we'd all be screwed. One time I was eating in a KFC restaurant and these 2 girls just came and sat next to me, asking random questions and one asked to have some of my chicken, when I said go for it, she tried to take it in a sexy way, it was hilarious. I had one where she said her ex-boyfriend was watching and asked if she could talk to me so he would leave her alone. After she told me there was no ex bf. To be fair though, it just would come down to whether I was attracted to them or not, they wouldn't need to have a lot of game, although the chicken thing might have put me off.

I think a good practical thing to do to get started is just compliment say 5 girls a day. That doesn't mean compliment and expect them to magically like you, just compliment and whatever happens keep it moving.

@Emerald I agree with a lot of what you say but I'm not sure this is exclusive to red pill type communities. How i look at it is shame if you like, is a human condition that many are suffering for a variety of different reasons, most prominantaly parental and societal. I agree that the solution to this and probably a lot of issues is unconditional self-love as you say, in fact I strongly believe this. However I don't understand the specificity of lumping the male groups all together under this umbrella, there are many communities with the same issues. Potentially it could be simplistic to just boil it down to self love. Another angle for example, is that as women have become more independent, the role of men has somewhat diminished to the point where women no longer need a man but maybe still want a man. Meaning that their criteria for a partner has evolved to wanting guys with attributes like emotional intelligence, which previous generations have not even thought about. Boys have been brought up without these extended skills as they weren't seen as important, now they come into a dating landscape that they are just not prepared for. This can push them into things like red or black pill groups as they feel that the situation is hopeless. Now just these series of events can affect men dramatically if they are not able to adapt, this doesn't necessarily come from lack of self love it's more circumstantial. But overall I get what you're saying, I just think the issue is a bit more complex.

Its usually a bit of a dance in the initial stage, but in my experience it goes something like - if a woman finds a guy attractive she will give some sort of signal, this can be extremely subtle and a lot of guys miss it, it could be just a look for a second too long. If the man picks up on the signal, in theory, he would go up and talk to her which would show confidence As long as he doesnt mess it up and comes across, cool, non-needy, interesting etc they would agree to go on a date and then just work out if they like each other and where it goes from there Obviously theres more to it but in reality it is the girl giving off signs at first, its not hardcore chasing on either side. I agree, women do like a bit of intrigue and mystery initially, its kinda like they want to uncover who you are gradually, they dont want to read the whole book in one go. I know with gorillas, the alpha male is 'chased' by females, i think its similar with chimps. Beta chimps do chase though and they have to be sneaky to get some, like taking the female to a location that away from any alphas. Bonobos are more egalitarian so i think they just all bang each other, including females on females, its used to reduce tension during conflicts amongst other things. But in general with apes females obviously have a preference for Alphas and would reject an ape they thought didnt have good genes for whatever reason. How it plays out though which is similar to apes, is you just be at the top of your game, look for signals and make your move. Women ultimately are the selectors, that doesnt mean we have to chase in a way thats off putting.

I disagree, i think understanding comes from learning the language of the other person. Keep in mind im not saying that a woman should be masculine or a man feminine, im saying that they should be aware of both polarities within themselves and also that they should understand the others perspective. Its like if I dont understand why my woman acts in an emotional way when shes feeling overwhelmed, i might demonise her behaviour instead of understanding it. Conversely if my woman doesnt understand my tendency to make a logical choice when she thinks its an emotional one, then we're doomed. Also there are different levels of masculine and feminine in different people, its important to be able to gauge this on both sides to work out a good fit. Its often not as simple as saying well im a man and thats masculine and youre a woman so thats feminine. Some women need an overly masculine dude, some women not so much, its very subjective.

Ah man why'd I have to be too handsome 😩 For real though, I think a lot of guys problem with women is because men can be over logical and so as women decide, at least in the initial phase, whether theyre going to accept a man's advances, men need to know its on them to learn how to speak the 'emotional language'. Having said that women can also be overly reliant on their emotions and feelings to make sense of the world, which can then affect the relationship negatively if they're not able to speak the 'logical language' of men. So essentially I'm saying there has to be a balance where both sexes embrace they're opposite polarity within themselves. In that way it can be much easier to understand and communicate with the other side. A big problem with ideologies like red pill is that they are 100% logic and they believe that women are stupid because they don't operate from logic. So they attempt to logic the female into their way of thinking so they can have power over them in the masculine realm. This can work but eventually women will feel the strain, which is why a lot of red pill guys don't have healthy relationships. It also exists on the other side with things like female dating strategies which is toxic femininity

OK yeah I understand, thanks for your perspective

I get you, I think in general if either sex wants a solid, fulfilling, loving relationship, strategies will not work long term. As men we seem to have this idea that we need strategies for a relationship. Strategies can work for men and women but only temporarily ie for men if they just want short term sexual encounters. Out of personal curiosity, do you have any insights on non-monogamy? I just got out of a relationship but I'm kind of enjoying the freedom although I'm wondering how sustainable it is and if I'm just wasting others time, even though I am being honest. I think I have an avoidant attachment style which I'm working getting to secure. Sorry don't mean to selfishly derail the topic lol

I don't think that's strategies though, it's more compromise. Let's say a woman has certain needs and she wants you to fulfill them but nags if you don't, then you have to communicate to each whether you the man can fulfil those needs or if those needs and what she wants you to do are reasonable. You may decide you don't want or can't fulfil those needs and then the relationship won't work (this goes both ways). If you just say don't nag and be peaceful she might be repressing, genuine needs that are easy to fulfil for the sake of the man's peace. This just doesn't work in practice. On the 'prize' talk I honestly think both sexes should believe they are the 'prize', meaning they should have confidence and self-respect for themselves. How that looks for woman is being selective and choosing a guy that they are sure really cares for them. For guys it could be choosing a women that cares for them but that they are also compatible with, a lot of guys will just choose a girl based on looks and then try and make everything else work after the fact, which can lead to unfulfilling relationships.

Yeah i agree, its interesting because this dynamic exists on the male side as well. So a guy will either not recognise or ignore his instinct that a girl he likes is not really into him, then he'll do things that he believes will get her to like him. What he does depends on what hes learnt through media or wherever, if its rom-coms he'll be the typical 'good guy' and maybe be really nice to her, buy her presents, give her all his time etc. Obviously this is known as the friendzone, the female equivalent is the fuckzone. So it is the same in that a guy needs to be true to himself and only really pursue girls that he feels are genuinely into him. All in all 'strategies' are essentially ways to convince someone who doesnt like you as much you want them to, to like you. They rarely work because at some point the mask will drop and if you feel that youre not good enough for the person, you will become insecure.

Youre obviously much more intelligent than me and I'm amazed at your ability to sum up the whole free will argument in less than 3 lines. But try again with your explanation. So far what ive understood is that 1+1=2 and not something else which would be chaotic, therefore there is free will, is that right?

Just my 2 pence and its interesting thinking from a female perspective, I think for a man to stay, first of all he himself has to be in the mindset of genuinely wanting a long term relationship. So 'female game' starts from this point which is selection, through the courting phase she has to ascertain whether he actually wants to settle down and be with her long term. I think a lot of the time women know that the guy is not really looking for that by they try and keep him around with sex or by demonstrating 'wifey' characteristics. Some guys will settle down for a particular girl but she needs to work out whether he actually feels strongly for her. This can get slightly confused if they're having sex and a lot of women believe that if he's having sex with her regularly, he loves her but this is rarely the case. Guys will definitely talk a lot of bullshit to keep a girl around. Once she's passed this hurdle and is sure that he's at least up for a long term relationship with the right woman, all she can really do is be herself and see if that connection can grow and they fall in love. There will be traits that will signal that she would be a good long term mate, but this is very dependent on the guy. For me personally it'll be things like being a person worthy of respect, high emotional intelligence, ability to navigate conflict well, dealt with previous trauma or at least working on it, good at communication, honest, fair, able to take criticism. There's many more probably.

1+1=2 would be an example of no free will, as in something outside you is fact and you have no will over it