SwiftQuill

I'm happy you think that those wokies mostly exist on Twitter. Personally I know many people like that irl, which is why I'm particularly pissed off at the ideology. As for green policies, those I find sad. I owned an electric vehicle for 2 years and unfortunately I think it's not the solution. Electric vehicles are pretty much a scam. Climate change and environment is a topic I fully care about and I often wonder what we can do as a collective to improve there. Meanwhile woke Hollywood celebrities who own jets like to say men are the privileged class and selfish for not taking in the wokeness ideology. It's a pet peeve of mine to see that hypocrisy.

Maybe, if instead of male I were female, I would have an easier time dating. Maybe, if I were homosexual instead of straight, I'd also have an easier time dating. Or in making friends. Maybe there are pros and cons. And being white male isn't all pros. And being female/whatever isn't all cons. Maybe if I were black, and rich, my life would be easier overall. Maybe if I were a lesbian black woman... who is a multi millionaire Hollywood celebrity, my life wouldn't be that horrible. This is the kind of relativism that stage Green rejects. (And no, I'm not saying that all "demographics" have the same number of pros and cons, I'm not saying they're equal in that way)

I explicitly said I don't know what it's like to be a woman and I have no clue how many problems they face in life. Not once did I say "Oh women don't have it that bad" or that about any other opressed class. All I did say is that the oppressed vs privileged dichotomy is too simplistic in the stage green worldview. I never dismiss personal experiences from: Women The disabled Ethnic minorities Immigrants LGBTQ And yet, because I'm male and white leftists feel very comfortable commenting on my life and how easy I have it. If people on this forum find what I'm saying that outrageous it shows they're just being biased. My lived experiences, conveniently, because of this ideology, are irrelevant, or "statistically rare", or "not as bad as this other group". Do you see my issue?

I only now noticed this was a sarcastic remark and not a legitimate attempt to engage in the topic. I think that's enough. One of the mods can close this thread or something. I'm done debating here. Happy new year, folks. Do make sure to protect your ideology with tooth and nail.

@Hardkill I'm not an american nor into US politics. What or who is AOC?

And by the way, just to clarify some points from earlier. I never said that "all men are oppressed in the tech market". I never said it's impossible for men to get a job in tech, or that I don't have one in tech. In fact I do. What I did say was that I've been rejected multiple times for jobs (both in tech and outside this one industry) due to DEI/Affirmative action quotas. I'd like to clarify this so that I'm not misconstrued. I appreciate when I say "I experienced [X] in various occasions" that people don't reply with "YOU THINK ALL MEN ARE OPPRESSED IN [X]??? HOW ABSURD!". What I said isn't some ideology or propaganda or a belief system. It's a communication of a fact, of a lived experience.

@Leo Gura yes I've seen those 2 videos. This thread was supposed to be a sort of part 3 in a way, but more focused on communication. I feel you did an ok job handling the topic of those videos but you kind of skimmed over some points I thought were important. Like in part 2 you mentioned "Yeah DEI/affirmative action is good but it can go a bit too far sometimes" you didn't deconstruct it with as much depth I hoped. Great set of videos though. My intention with this thread was specifically to focus on communication. As you noticed from the reaction to your own videos, many people commented saying they find you to be right wing for daring to criticise some of those points (preposterous). There is an inherent kneejerk reaction in left wing communities such that any criticism toward the left is taken in a very hostile manner. And phrased as us vs the right/the alt right/the incels/the whatever. Here's a more succint list of my main points: Opposition to wokeness is õften unfairly labeled as right-wing, ignoring center and center-left critiques. There's a distinction between criticizing the goals of equity policies and critiquing their implementation; while the goals may be admirable, some measures can be overly simplistic and unfair. Wokeness oversimplifies issues, exaggerates privilege, and dismisses individual struggles. Communities like Actualized.org dismiss valid criticisms as ideological immaturity or bigotry. Society's intolerance for dissent stifles dialogue and discourages balanced discussions on justice and fairness.

"Whiny dude whines" "Andrew Tate" "Red pill, alt right" "White male thinks white males are oppressed in tech" "You're giving criticism from below" "I've never experienced the things you're describing therefore you're wrong" "Tell me about your experiences, I'll debunk every single one of them" This is what it comes down to this thread, unfortunately. I genuinely wanted it to have been more productive than this. All of this, because in my initial post I said "We should be able to discuss the negative aspects of wokeness more". We essentially didn't get to step 1 without everyone hopping in to try dismiss my points.

I'm not interested in giving examples and describing these experiences if you just want to rationalize them and "debunk" my points in this thread. I'm well past done dealing with "debunkers". I actually regret mentioning these experiences because that seemingly took the focus of this thread, which wasn't my intention.

THANK YOU that is one of my points yes.

@hoodrow trillson My opinion is that people should be more open minded and tolerant to different opinions. But really it's a matter of healthy communication. This thread is a good example of terrible communication. Everyone here thinks I'm a whiny dude who feels "men are marginalized" when that's not what I said. Here are some of my suggestions for everyone (not just the right or just the left or any particular group): 1 - Avoiding thought terminating clichés. Every time you feel tempted to use one of the following words: incel, racist, fascist, right wing, alt right, bigot, transphobe, woke mind virus, communist/marxist (in the pejorative), radical (as prefix), etc. Just think for like 5 seconds, and see if you have sufficient data to determine they are those things. But as a general rule of thumb, avoid them. 2 - Try to understand, not just debunk. "I'm going to debunk this red pill idiot". Maybe don't. Maybe try to actually understand what he's saying. This doesn't mean to agree with it. Genuinely try to understand. Don't get into "debunk mode" straight away. 3 - Avoid "us vs them" attitudes. This goes back to the thought terminating clichés, but essentially I feel people should try to see individuals mostly as individuals, just another human who is confused or suffering in life, as opposed to "the enemy" (like the white men, or the patriarchs, or the incels, or the whoever is your enemy). 4 - Don't be loyal. Like if I make a post criticising one particular feminist individual, or one left wing content creator, like Vaush or Destiny or whatever, don't immediately jump to defend them. Try to be impartial and listen to the criticism, and afterward reply. Don't just think OH THIS GUY HATES FEMINISTS THEREFORE HE'S A SEXIST (because I criticize one particular feminist celebrity, for instance) just don't. This goes beyond the "left vs right" battle. It's a problem of communication and tribalism overall. It's something I feel we should address more often. Both online and in person, I feel communication is very polluted whenever it has anything to do with ideologies.

My biggest point in this thread wasn't to get into specifics like that. And you are portraying my points as "a whiny dude whines". My biggest point initially was I feel we need to add more nuance to discussing left wing ideas without resorting to thought terminating clichés like redpill or incel to dismiss other opinions. I'm not saying that "men are marginalized". I am saying I've had many encounters with leftists that lacked nuance and had this overcorrection attitude. My biggest argument, truly, is that we should accept more individual life experiences. As opposed to seeing everything through a marxist good vs evil, privileged vs oppressor perspective, which is reductive. That is my main point.

@Nilsi what? So from this thread you immediately assume I'm "alt right", "red pill" and all that stuff about "preaching masculinity"? You know this is actually a great example of my points being dismissed. Care to add "incel", "blackpill", "cringe", and other thought terminating clichés to your list?

@Leo Gura Can you paraphrase the main points I've said in this thread? In an accurate manner? And don't get into the content details of the tech industry or this or that example. I mean the overall point I'm making.

So according to you, because for a thousand years men dominated everything and everyone, today, the average Joe working 60 hour weeks at Mcdonald's, he is part of the privileged class. It shocks me that you fail to see so many problems in the leftist ideology. There are serious flaws in this worldview. And I could go on listing many of them, but if you're going to enter "let's debunk everything you say" mode, I don't see much of a point. I'm a huge fan of Actualized.org, the channel has taught me a lot of valuable things in life. But I do see this loyalty to the left bias, unfortunately. And finally, this is where I should have started this thread: My definition of "wokeness" isn't "the monolithic of left wing ideas". By my definition of "wokeness" I mean the excesses, the misapplications, the reductive perspective of left wing ideas and narratives, which yes, many leftists hold. You shouldn't assume most leftists and stage green individuals are as nuanced as you, Leo.