Something Funny

@numbersinarow Oh god, you are so dumb, it's not even funny. It's not a technicality. Your whole argument hinges on an assumption that I expect some "result". I've never said that. I've said that the reason I am going vegan is because I don't want to participate in animal murder and abuse. And you can totally make an argument against it because what you are saying is simply factually incorrect and ridiculous. The idea that millions of people ceasing to consume something won't have any impact is dumb. Veganism does have an impact on reduction in meat consumption in developed countries as well as growth of plant based foods market. Even companies that produce meat products specifically, like sausaged, are now starting to branch out into plant based alternatives. The only beatdown you've done was to your already struggling brain. yes because that's much more important than being able to construct a senstence and comprehend what another person is saying... This is not an appeal to popularity. I don't care if 0 people who will read our discussion will agree with me. I am pointing out the logical fallacy in thinking that individual impact doesn't matter. It absolutely does. In 2000, the US election was decided by 537 votes in Florida, making Bush win. 1876 U.S. Presidential Election: Rutherford B. Hayes became the 19th President of the United States after securing 185 electoral votes to Samuel Tilden's 184. A single contested electoral vote played a key role in the outcome Andrew Johnson’s Impeachment (1868): The U.S. Senate fell one vote short of the two-thirds majority needed to convict and remove President Andrew Johnson. This single vote preserved his presidency I wonder how many people sat at home thinking that their vote won't matter anyway. You cannot claim that their are used in the same context here because this is my thread. I define the context of this conversation. I've literally asked for a specific thing: questioning my motivation to make me go deeper and understand it better. It's not my fault that you are derailing it. Are you also going to go to my fashion advise thread and start arguing with me about the benefits of wearing clothes vs being naked? Yes, I agree with your point on subjectivity, not how you use it. It was not said in response to anything! It was literally the main topic of this thread! I've started the whole thread with it! I didn't start this topic to argue with retards like you about veganism! What are you talking about, I literally went addressing your post by paragraph. But it doesn't it doesn't make sense. Because it is a dumb analogy. Yes it does. Because veganism is about doing things that you can actually control. Oh yeah? Please do that, I will be right after you. But we do not think about bacteria in the same way. Because these are two fundamentally different situations. You can control eating animal. You can't control eating bacteria. Animals suffer. Bacteria doesn't suffer. Meat eater keeps eating meat because he is not invested into animal wellfare enough to stop eating meat. Vegan doesn't stop killing bacteria because it is literally an impossible thing to do. You analogy sucks. If you used an analogy about slavery, it would actually be better. What is there to address? On top of it being a dumb analogy, that's not worthy of addressing, I've also never argued that other people should stop eating meat. THIS IS NOT THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD. You can it two cows per day. You can drink your own piss. You can think about animals the same way I think about bacteria. I don't give a fuck. I can't control how many cows you eat. I can only control my actions. Which is what this thread was about: how do I learn to better control my actions so that they align with my values. I am not asking you to challenge a subjective statement. This is something that you've came up with on your own. I am trying to "discredit" you because you are to dumb to even grasp what this whole thread is about. I was asking people to challenge my motivation. And look, he did, he did challenge my motivation by saying that it seems to be external vs internal, and that it requires me to think about negative things like animal slaughter vs being grounded in something positive, and is in general kind of weak. SO I GUESS IT IS HUMANLY POSSIBLE TO DO?

@ChrisZoZo chill please

Once again, literally said the opposite of everything I've been saying. Either you are illiterate or dishonest, or a bit of both.

Do you understand the meaning of the verb "to result in"? Is your english just bad? You can't say that going vegan "results in" animal slaughter, this is just grammatically and logically incorrect. And to address the actual logic behind this, this is the same dumb logic that can be said about anything: - there is no reason to not support slave labour, because there will still be slave labour. - there is no reason to vote because your 1 vote doesn't matter Yes, nothing is super impactful when it's just one person doing it. But the change needs to start somewhere. A million people going vegan totally has an impact. A million people starting to eat meat totally has an impact. Besides, just not willing participate is also a valid reason to not do something. I don't participate at street take overs and littering, it's not like I do that expecting it to stop. I just don't want to participate in your idiocracy. Which part of I DO NOT CALL MYSELF VEGAN do you not understand? What analogy? I didn't make an analogy, I stated my reason for why I don't want to eat animal products. That's my personal reason. No, I don't love them enough to go on a rescue mission for them. I never stated that I did, what are you talking about? I think there is actually some language barrier because this is just stupid. I did not establish anything with you. I am not going vegan! And I didn't ask anyone to attack anything. I asked people to question and challenge my motivation to eat a vegan diet. Where did I use the word attack? And no, I don't agree with you because you are full of shit. Where? Where did I ask anyone to attack anything? I didn't. I didn't ask people for their opinion on veganism. I didn't criticise or attack people who eat meat. I simply asked people to question my motivation and hoped to have a deep spiritual and psychological discussion about resolve and motivating yourself in a conscious, positive way. It's not my fault that none of you are capable of anything beside projecting their own bullshit onto my own words and wanting to share your mind about microbes and bacteria. @Sincerity is literally the only person who understood the assignment and actually questioned my reasons, eventually. Bacteria are not inferior. I've never said that. Once again, you are just putting whatever words are convenient for you in my mouth. And as a matter of fact, there is no reason why even actual vegans should concern themselves with bacteria dying as this is not something that you can control as a human. Veganism is about reducing death and suffering as much as you can. Expecting people to try to reduce deaths of bacteria is absurd and is literally impossible. Because not matter what you do some will die. If you keep living - some will die, if you kill yourself - some will die. The fact that you think that this is some kind of gotcha point is hilarious.

This is a common pitfall for many vegans who try to use ethics to justify veganism, yes. But then basically every philosophical system has its limitations. Just watch Leo's videos on science, post modernism, religion, spiral dynamics stages. They all have some kind of philosophical pitfall.

@Jannes Thank you. I am not okay with milk, fish, and eggs so vegetarianism is not an option for me.

@Basman not another question about plants and microbes, please. You are killing me guys. Read all my other responses to that. Sometimes I do, sometimes I try to do my best to carry them out instead. I do feel compassion towards them. And considering how I'm just trying to implement mostly vegan lifestyle, I just treat it as one of the points I am working on. I've said in my original post that I am not a vegan. Do you guys only read titles or something? I select what I care about based on carefully contemplating it. It not based on cuteness, it's based on how can I realistically minimise the suffering I cause in my life. I am definitely not okay with meat and livestock industries because they are just horrible. I don't care about deaths of bacteria killed by my body because I do not believe they experience any suffering, and even if they did, there is nothing I can do apart from dying, which will also kill a ton of cells and bacteria that used to live in my body. So this is a dumb point to make overall, it's like spending your life worrying about a blackhole appearing and sucking up the earth. For plants, please READ my previous answers. At the moment of starting this thread I was okay with ethically sourced wool and beeswax, but since I've been doing a lot of learning in the meantime, I am not so sure about those anymore. They seem shady and I need to keep researching them to come to a final decision. Now I have a question for you. Are you okay with eating people? Assuming that their life is not more valuable than lives of pigs and cows, and that you are not like those vegan hypocrites, with their selective compassion, you should be okay with eating people, right?

I was referring to numbersinarow's comment, mostly. It was a relief to see someone be on my side and bring up some good points.

@Marcel another point. Why is it that every meat product that has an animal on its packaging show a happy, healthy, animal, often drawn in cartoonish cute way? Why not show them bloody, tortured, and abused? Because the vast majority of people would be repulsed by it and not by the product. This tells me that most people see animal suffering as a bad thing when confronted with it face to face.

That's what I am trying to say. Sure many people avoid thinking about things to deeply, are detached from their emotions, or are cruel. Some literally have no empathy due to how their brain works. But most people, with healthy, neurotypical brain, when fully conscious of what they are doing, would feel bad about killing an animal.

Yes, but why are those culture, conditioning, etc., one way and not the other? I think that everyone kind of intuitively recognises how killing an animal is not the best thing in the world to do. It's just that when survival, and food, and money, and sex, come into play it's very easy to ignore this intuition and rationalise it away. Because he is probably completely desensitised and estranged from himself. Just imagine what working in that hell must be like. If you kept your emotions there you would just go insane and kill yourself in a week. It's like people who dissociate when something traumatic happens to them. Hunting is different. I believe there is a natural hunting instinct in us that makes people enjoy it. But I wonder how they would feel about what they did if they actually sat down, allowed their hormones to chill out and contemplated their actions. Because it seems to me that anyone who does that will start feeling bad about hunting and killing. This was not a boar btw, just a wild pig. Like they said, those are just pigs that people brought on ships with them in the past and let loose. A wild boar would fuck them all up so bad it's not even funny.

@Buck Edwards I am sorry, I really tried talking to but I just can't. I have said multiple time how I am not vegan, yet you write "if you are so into being vegan". I've said multiple time how nothing is objectively good or bad, and how morality is subjective, and yet you once again ask me why should my feelings be more important than anyone else's. It's just not possible to have a conversation with you. It's like you don't even read what another person writes, you just keep talking to your self.

You got it in the wrong order. Feelings dictate social conditioning. How come society has evolved to see this as a bad thing? And perception is literally the only thing that there is for you. In a world where there are no objective moral values and ethics, all you have to guide you are your feelings and perceptions.

Not everyone, that's exactly the challenge. You need a controlled environment where you know that no other factor influence its electric conductivity. How do you that? Maybe that who killed the other plant was sweating heavily, or was sick, or was on her period, used some cosmetics product, etc., etc. And even if you do it perfectly, all you are left with is the knowledge that plant's conductivity changes. What does a change in conductivity mean? Yes. But here is another paradigm shift: There is a huge difference in how cruel and desensitised a person needs to be to pick a flower and to kill an animal. There is a huge difference in how you will feel emotionally if you kill an animal with your own hands and if you pick up a carrot and eat it. Why is that? Have you ever thought about it?

@LambdaDelta thanks for sharing I will check it out. Yes, watching it with psychedelics would probably be a life changing experience. I think I might do it in the future.

@Marcel okay, so a bunch of inconclusive studies with questionable methodology and inconclusive results, and nothing on pain or suffering. 1. electrical conductivity changes in response to a variety of stimuli including emotions or thoughts. All that tells us is that depending on a stimuli, plant body conducts electricity differently. Which can be said about literally anything. Metals will have different conductivity based on temperature and other environmental factors. There is no evidence that would suggest that plant can make a conscious decision to change it, their material just reacts to environmental conditions. 2. Plants respond to a variety of stimuli, like light, touch, and sound. Yes, that's pretty self-evident and expected. You put a flower in a dark room and it will die. You touch a gentle plant too much and it will die. Sounds can probably disturb them to, but that's not a plant exclusive thing, it's just a physical phenomenon. Have you ever grown crystal in school? This tells us nothing about suffering, or pain. 3. Plants can communicate through chemical signals Once again, really interesting but irrelevant. One plant releases a chemical cause it's being eaten -> another plants receptors detect it and start releasing it as well. That's not a conscious decision, just like it's not a conscious decision for you to start salivating when you smell tasty food. 4. The kills of the dracena Very interesting if true, but as it says in the video, probably just flawed methodology.

@Marcel But thank you for actually watching it. I appreciate and respect you for that.

1. I refer you to my comment about how more plants due to animal farming than due to human consumption. 2. My common sense tells me that it's not like that for them too. Do we have any evidence that plant feel pain and suffer in the same way that animals do? With animals we know for a fact that they have pain receptors and we can see pain signals and measure the levels of pain due to brain scans. There is also no reason why plants would evolve the ability to feel pain when they can't do anything about it. Pain is a survival mechanism. Plants have different survival strategies like having thorns and being poisonous.

@Buck Edwards can't say that I am surprised. Why care about truth, love, and consciousness, when you can make your life about eating and shitting.

@numbersinarow @Buck Edwards I dare you to watch the first 20 minutes of this and then talk to me about plants and bacteria.

@Vynce brace yourself, whining about dead bacteria incoming.

@ChrisZoZo thank you

@Buck Edwards I mean... sorry, but this is just really frustrating. And I am tired of wasting my effort on writing down elaborate arguments when you either ignore them, or don't want to understand them, or actually don't understand them... Nice gaslighting.

@Buck Edwards Here's a version for 5 year olds and cavemen: Animals eat plants. Lots of plants. Then people eat animals. Waste plants. Bad idea. Instead, just eat plants. Skip animal. Less plants die. Less work. Everyone happy. Easy math. Easy choice. Be smart. Eat plants.

I swear, it's like I am talking to a wall.