Zen LaCroix

There was another study somewhere where it said covertly the number 1 trait that people look for in a partner is them being good at sex

What do you consider to be hardcore game?

Ok I get it. Faking who you are and what you want to get sex. I do disagree that if you want sex you have to tell her. You are underestimating women's social intelligence. They are not so stupid that everything has to be said explicitly. You don't have to tell her you want sex. You might not even know 100% if you want sex. Part of the excitement can be not knowing what's going to happen or going with the flow. But I get it everybody has different opinions on what they consider ethical.

Be more specific please. I don't know what you mean by what you really are, intentions and agenda are hidden to exploit her I think you are saying you need to know upfront what you want and tell her. Which is kinda too logical in my opinion. Where's the mystery? But expand on this so I fully understand give an example. Also remember the core idea of my questioning is about ensuring we respect women's sovereignty.

Interesting. I still I don't see how this is taking away her sovereignty but I can see of course lying to get you want can be considered unethical. When it comes to saying you value a woman for her personality even if you don't. Truthfully almost all men who are not psychopaths and narcissistics are gonna care about a woman's personality on some level. Anyway how would reckon that with the idea of playing the game and that noone is above the game. So even if you just want to fuck it would be generally be bad social skills to just say that explicitly. Of course there is a way to make it sexy but the mystery is preferred. You're also not obligated to know if you want a relationship or just sex with the girl before you have sex. And many women want casual sex too. They want to chase and by being upfront about sex you're forcing yourself to make a decision and you don't even know if you want this girl or not. It also can rob her of the ability to chase and qualify herself to you.

Let's be more specific. What exactly do you mean by cheating and manipulating to get sex? Give an example

I hear this but I feel differently. Pick up is about getting a woman attracted and wanting to sleep with you. You learn how to handle their state, increase her state, her compliance and buying temperature to want to go off with you. There is also the reality that the woman often isn't looking for a guy and may not even have an agenda towards that. She has so much abundance and already has so many guys that want her and guys who continually persuing her that she just expects to go with the flow of some guy she likes. This is influence and persuasion but would you really call pumping a woman's state to make her want to go off with you not respecting her sovereignty as a human being?

Leo made a blog post about pick up guys not respecting the sovereignty of women. I wanted to ask Leo as well as the forum members what it means to respect the sovereignty of women when doing pick up. To me it means not harassing them physically or sexually. Respecting their rejection and walking away. Not touching them in an unwanted way. No use of violence, the threat of violence, coercion, intimidation or blackmail or any other method to get the girl to do something that she may not want to do. Another forum member made a post about doing pick up in a conscious way and this is what I'm getting at here. Because according to Leo all socializing is corrupt because we are survival machines but the reality is that most of us here want women and friends and a family and socializing is or will be a big part of our lives. So lets talk about it. What do you think it means to respect a woman's sovereignty?

I've heard some say if you don't date trans people you're transphobic but is that even the main consensus among the trans community or the opinion of just a few trans people? Are we overblowing this because a few trans people are saying this online and its easy to make them all punching bag? It's not like them saying that is gonna change what people are attracted to

@Leo Gura What got you so into Aba and Preach's content?

I noticed a pattern here. If a thread goes on long enough it'll eventually lead to discussions of topics of concousness, god, psychedelics and spiritual advancement practices like Kriya Yoga

The thing is NOT being able to get women can give you an existential crisis It can fill you hopelessness and despair if you can't get a woman because if you can't them then there's no possibility of you having a family which is what most men want at some point Its not even about happiness its about getting those base needs in Maslows Hierachy taken care of

The thing is if you don't have frame then you'll just take on the societal frame which is this girl is better than me because she looks better than me she's out of my league so you just won't approach or you'll be weird or you'll approach her in a low value way because you believe she is better than you You may feel insecure about your looks where you should actually feel confident for no reason at all because confidence in itself is sexy Society's frame at least in America is that the man should chase the woman for example. There are many issues with society's frame

Owen himself has said a bunch of stuff around this overcompensation topic specifically he said you have to act and carry yourself like a highly attractive man but 10x it to compensate for your lack of looks. And you have to hold frame because you will be tested on it for acting like that when you don't look like that type of guy. You also have to hold frame because you are not going to be constantly validated and getting girls throwing themselves at you for nothing. If you don't validate your own frame then your state will crash and your frame will crumble due to rejection. And if you need positive feedback to maintain your frame then you are done! Which I've found rings true He says you basically wanna be the ugly guy who thinks he hot. Every girl at some point has or will date a guy who isn't good looking and you can be that guy. A one of one unique man

Owen loves those crazy BPD girls which is why he always talks about them He's also a super night owl. The whole team that he has is. His lifestyle is not conducive to dating a woman with a regular job. He lives a fast life with lots of sex, partying, traveling, networking at all hours of the day. He travels a lot too He actually clicks with women that care a lot about status get lots of plastic surgery etc from what I've seen but I don't know that much about him