Mh1781

@Mason Riggle it's not necessarily dualistic because I'm not claiming there's anything other than consciousness. Leo at least seems to believe thay God is limiting its own access to truth to pretend to be a human. Why not multiple humans?

@Mason Riggle I believe consciousness is the foundation of reality because of the hard problem of consciousness, but if God is deceiving itself, what if it's deceiving itself that it can't split off into multiple personalities made of its essence?

Minimizing belief does not necessarily get you the right one. It is definitely the simplist I'll admit. And you're wrong BTW ?. Im more inclined to believe that God fragments itself into multiple personalities like what Bernardo kastrup says. We all come from the same essence so you'll still experience oneness on shrooms, but when you go back to your own human reality you're separated from the other fragments. God's infinite why can't it block off itself like a multiple personality disorder?

You're talking to me as if you were my own imaginary avatar and not a subject that is currently experiencing its own unique qualia. Let's be honest if you believe that only your qualia exists in this moment right now then I'm a figment of your imagination. Do you not believe me when I say that I am experiencing qualia similar to what you do right now? Or do you think that I'm part of your story and my qualia isn't real?

I assume the answer would be that I'm imagining all these people thinking they're solipcist and I'm the only one. I have to assume that I as God am actively deceiving my human self into thinking there are others who think they are aware. Now I'm not denying the possibility of this, but if I told you guys I'm the only one who's aware you guys would basically have to call me a liar because I know it's not true or I have to assume you guys are lying. Why should I assume anyone is lying when they're literally what brought me into even considering this possibility? I have been conscious as the only one existing, but I just see no way of being conscious other than my own consciousness no matter how deep I go. Could solipsism be true? Maybe. but I see no reason it has to be true. On a separate note, I genuinely dont understand why Leo is telling me why I'm the only one he exists when he believes he's the only awareness that exists. It's strange

So I've been on a shrooms trip and I've experienced that realization that I'm God creating all this to entertain itself. I guess my only gripe is what if there are other consciousness, but we are only ever able to explore our own. How can you (I?) be so certain that whatever it is apparent in consciousness is it? Aren't we all fooling each other into thinking that each of us is the only consciousness experiencing itself and the others are just bots? If you think that and I think that, obviously only one of us can be right.

So I've been on a shrooms trip and I've experienced that realization that I'm God creating all this to entertain itself. I guess my only gripe is what if there are other consciousness, but we are only ever able to explore our own. How can you (I?) be so certain that whatever it is apparent in consciousness is it? Aren't we all fooling each other into thinking that each of us is the only consciousness experiencing itself and the others are just bots? If you think that and I think that, obviously only one of us can be right.

I get what you're saying with necessity, I'm a determinist myself. I just want to understand what you mean when you say reality is absolute perfection because that's very subjective.

@Mu_ Honestly, now that I think about it I wouldn't really say that all those forms of suffering make me think that the universe is bad, just that it's neutral to our pleasure and pain. I think the main disagreement I have with Leo is when he says the entire universe is all good and there's no bad at all. if your moral axiom is fully explore all forms of consciousness sure he can say everything that happens is good. I just think that's so far removed from the axiom of morality that most if not all humans use which is maximize pleasure and minimize pain. This even applies to religious people who seek heaven to maximize pleasure and avoid hell to prevent pain.

"why should one accept loving every possible experience is better than experiencing excruciating pain." When I wrote this, I was thinking of why God thinks it's good to fully experience itself rather than save itself at least the worst suffering in its ego form. Why is this self-exploration at the cost of the suffering of clueless egos good. is it simply because that's why our higher state wants? I've heard you say that God is infinite and can imagine anything into reality. Why not imagine a game that doesn't involve unnecessary suffering like children dying

@Mu_ Of course I'll be honest, I'm not trying to win, I genuinely want to understand where you guys are coming from. I feel for the pain of of other animals, but no where as near as I should because then I'd be a vegan. It's a hypocrisy on my part and I acknowledge it. never really thought of other potential life forms so no that doesn't bother me. As for insects it's much harder for me to sympathize with them because I don't even know if they are conscious let alone experience pain. Things coming and falling apart bothers me in the short term, but I accept it in the long term. I will say, although I'm not so scared of my ego dying I still get scared of not experiencing consciousness at all after death. Uncomfortable and really uncomfortable experiences don't bother me. It's hardcore pain like torture, war, and rape that's do personally bother me and does make me see that the universe in a more negative light. Also while I acknowledge some people do love pain, it's one thing to consent experiencing it vs somebody else getting it when they don't consent, driving them to suicide (chronic pain in body).

@Danioover9000 I'm not sure if you agree with Leo, but aren't we already God? Can't God comprehend the lessons learned from experiences to create its own universe without making a consciousness that feels independent suffer unimaginable pain?

@AtheisticNonduality If at full God consciousness experiencing all possibilities is the ultimate good so be it, but I don't understand how that subjective view from the ultimate consciousness is truer than a limited consciousness being tortured without any memory of consenting thinking that it's bad.

Good and bad do not mean anything in my view without a subjective goal, in my case I'll use well being as an example. We aren't all powerful and there are things that can hinder well being which can be labelled bad. In the God state, there's nothing that can really be subjectively bad to God because nothing can get in the way of its goal. To quote Leo "God's motive is goodness. Pure joy of existence".Not just things that humans love, but also the things humans abhor like rape, murder, torture, etc.This reminds me of euthypro dillemma. Why should we in our lower conscious state accept that suffering is good because our higher conscious self, which wants to metaphorically bust a nut exploring every possibility, feels that way. What if you're living the person whose family got murdered and is being tortured by the government. I don't care how much you're able to lose your ego and not even care about your family dying, that water boarding is going to hurt like a motherfucker. Im not expecting that God should make the universe perfect for humans or that it should force humans to be perfect moral agents, but why should one accept loving every possible experience is better than experiencing excruciating pain. At the very least God could "give infinite beings opportunity to experience and discover infinite good of consciousness themselves." Because of some people's genetics, cognitive biases, environment, and lack of access to education, so many people do not even have a chance to attempt what Leo is claiming is possible, let alone believe it. In these cases, God is essentially cockblocking itself from discovering it's God which Leo says is the point of creating infinite beings in the first place. I'm still open to the idea that God is just infinite consciousness manifesting every possibility, but I just view that as a possible reality that is neither good or bad in the ultimate sense, but unfavored as a human being that has the potential to experience so much suffering for no reason other than existing.