RMQualtrough

The full way there OP is talking about, cessation. On DMT more than once I appear to have blacked out. Did I actually have no experience though, or just no memory? I never thought I lost consciousness just thought I must've had a wild trip and just didn't form memory. In cessation you have no memory of that part either. OP says you become God totally. No awareness of even void. What is that like? Is it like anything? Is there an experience of it but because we aren't our body at all anymore no memory is crafted in the brain?

This is the most complicated thing I have heard for me personally. What is it like to become God? Not just on a psychedelic trip but the full way there... Leo says he almost did that.

Tbh I still don't totally get what this implies. There is something which continues (true Self), but how is that from the perspective of the mortal self? It is 100% totally identical to typical Atheism right?

Do you have a really simplified and dumbed down version of this you can perhaps link to? I am having difficulty understanding the difference in implication. I have my own thoughts on the topic but they're not fully formed... I do think there will be cessation, but what that means or what actually happens I am unclear on... I am all things at once, I continue, but what is that like to die while I continues? I've had ego death but it included perceptions still even if just a white void.

If consciousness can literally cease that could be seen as bothersome to the ideology. What then is the relative difference between Atheist proposed death and Idealist death? It seems that there isn't one. Only a difference proposed on the Absolute scale, and we can see that, yes, consciousness continues when yours does not, like in the surgeons operating on you when you're knocked out. In the most egotistical of terms, what does it matter if consciousness continues if I do not know about it? But we also do not know if we ever do experience cessation of consciousness or of memory...

Hoffman is the most versatile for psychedelics. I use Mandelin for DMT because IIRC it stays clear for n,n and changes color for 5-MeO.

@RendHeaven If it can't be proven then it is faith not fact. I do not know for a fact that any of the things that have happened to me were not just a trick of the brain. With few exceptions of things I can legitimately prove to anyone. Neither materialists nor idealists can get outside the mind to be able to verify "oh look there's stuff out here", or "wow look nothing!" To actually prove it as fact you'd need to somehow find a way to capture the opposition in an impossible paradox, or logical impossibility. Other type of proof would not be possible except process of elimination.

Solipsists believe their relative conscious experience is the only thing that exists. It is proposed that "others" are simply speaking pre-determined dialogue like in a dream. But they are not consciously coming up with this dialogue, so WHO is saying these words? There is evidently some conscious element they are unable to access. But that is accepted to exist by them because it is in the same mind. But if the mind is all that exists, space is only a projection. So there is no more distance between their subconscious mind and our conscious mind. It all occupies the same space because there IS no space in which to create distance. So our minds are as valid and real as their subconscious mind, or whichever processes take place to conjure up dialogue for the person's dream characters and landscapes that they cannot directly access consciously.

"And you are but a thought." Satan coming in with the wisdom.

How about "you ARE reality"? I can't seem to separate the two. You were never created, and all that exists is You.

@BipolarGrowth I do not have free will, that makes me a robot. I think most robots are aware, I can prove this. But aside from that, then I am considering it like this... A human mind has at least two conscious processes, what we call conscious and subconscious, so we know there can be multiplicity inside one mind (our human one). Take a supermind, the All, God... We are all subconscious minds in God's mind. Hm. Is that a good hypothesis?

You know consciousness exists. You know whatever else is happening right now exists at least by mirage. When you talk to a person and they talk back, a Solipsist thinks those people are robots and only what they call self is conscious. Exactly like a dream. So then what is putting the words in the robot people's mouths or dream people's mouths? Evidently it is a conscious process of some sort but you do not have access to it. So your conscious self is not controlling it. So then who or what is? If you say subconscious then there is right away another "mind" you can't access. That is a problem for Solipsism. What people mean by it, it can't be accurate on that basis. They have to accept there is some aware process they are not aware of.

This is the quote originally. Solipsism isn't considered to be the same as Idealism. You and Leo are Idealists. It is the same as Solipsism IMO but it's not what people mean when they talk about that... You are putting us in (as) God's mind. Solipsists think their limited mind they call the self is all there is because you can't know others aren't robots or w.e. that's what people mean. That is illogical on the grounds shown.

@RendHeaven You can't realize this is factual. You've had an experience, and you believe by faith that it is not just a trick of the brain. You've not seen behind any curtains unless you've literally exited your mind which is not possible, you just experienced the pure form of consciousness. The nature of that is proveable. To state that it is literally the only thing that exists is not factual. What happened could be happening within your own brain. You can never know this. It is just said that "no way could the brain do that!" but that's not factual proof of anything. That is why people don't just all accept it is right. It's not because only you have done this.

Right but it's not something you are conscious of or controlling. So there is at least one other conscious process you are not actively controlling. In dreams these other processes are able to speak full fluent sensical sentences, and are conforming to whichever situation just like another person in waking life. So what is another mind but another conscious process? Who or what is putting the lines in their mouths and controlling them? Even with Solipsism, you are accepting there are multiple conscious processes already when you accept there is a subconscious which speaks as characters in dreams. If only your mind exists, there is no space and so no separation between your conscious and subconscious, or between your waking conscious mind and another person's mind. Why is another person's mind less valid or real than the inaccessible parts of your own?

If there isn't any other conscious process, what is speaking the dialogue the characters in your dreams say when you talk to them? What is crafting the landscapes?

@Forestluv I've heard before that some degree of schizophrenia was evolutionarily beneficial because it made people more creative.

@RendHeaven Else/other is a concept in your mind. Word games don't prove anything, you can also say existence exists because non-existence doesn't exist. You can mess with language in a lot of ways. It could well be the case that you have an idea of other because there IS other and your mind could be created by a material brain to process the very real external world. Proof of both directions are inaccessible. It makes less sense that material can create immaterial but that is just a proof of the logic.

@RendHeaven I can feel myself cease and consciousness bleed out and become all encompassing. That is actually proveably an accurate perception (for consciousness to be sizeless). It does not prove there is nothing else. It is as impossible to find qualia in physical space as it is to find external reality from mind. If there is an external reality you can't know it. There's no curtain you can peak behind unless you can legit exit your mind but you can't. Everything is processed in mind. It does not prove the lack of anything else at all.

@kinesin You are also part of the dream, so what do you do when you are in pain? Why would it be any different for others? Someone can tell themselves pain is a brain illusion all they want, and factually know it, but they still don't want to experience it.

Rn I am envisioning an all encompassing "God's mind". Something/someone that is not our direct conscious experience causes the dialogue in the other characters in our dreams, so in dreams there are multiple conscious processes. And I am thinking we are all one of these in "God's" mind. There is uniqueness just as there is between the conscious and subconscious or between love and fear. "God's mind" encompasses them all. But there is certainly uniqueness at play which we can even find within ourselves.

Yeah I agree that if we are all parts of "God's" mind like how dream characters are part of our's when we sleep (or the entities when we trip TF out), then what difference does it even make?

^ Look at this, looool. Anyway, Solipsism is not logical I am proposing now, because the person thinks only their direct conscious process exists. If that is the case then who or what causes the dialogue in the other characters in your dreams? Who or what creates the landscapes? Your conscious mind that you're then seemingly in control of is not consciously causing these things so then WHAT IS? If it is a "subconscious mind" doing those things then you accept there is another mind running which you conscious mind isn't directly controlling or aware of. You just believe that you own it. If another mind can exist then why not many? Just because of apparent physical distance? If only mind exists there is no distance because there is no space.

That's the point. If you don't think your subconscious is outside of your mind, even though you accept it exists, accept it must be a conscious process of some sort, yet can't directly access it, why would another person's mind be different? The only difference is that there appears to be physical distance. If only your mind exists though, space is a hologram and distance doesn't exist, meaning there can't be any distance or spatial division between things. It's just that I think "your" mind in its totality is "God's" mind. Your conscious and subconscious is part of God's mind. Perhaps consider all of our conscious minds God's subconscious, and all of our subconscious minds God's sub-subconscious (ha).

The subconscious is a conscious mind that the regular self can't access directly. The fact there are multiple conscious minds in their own mind proves that it's possible for there to be an inaccessible conscious process. Our selves to them are inaccessible conscious processes (they are not consciously controlling our words) just like what they call their subconscious. No space means the physical distance between our selves and their mind is 0 and equal to the distance between their conscious and subconscious (also 0). Dream characters have autonomy from the conscious dreamer unless the dreamer becomes lucid. The sub is acting autonomously and it is conscious and has knowledge. So do others. So the others have a conscious process and autonomy. This is the distinction between solipsism and nonduality because both propose one mind. Solipsists believe their own conscious relative self-mind is all that exists but because of the subconscious it evidently isn't. If you accept the subconscious exists you have to accept "other" minds.