RMQualtrough

Right, perhaps I don't understand this yet then. I do understand that everything is nothing but not that, for example, the perception of red is the entire infinity. I do understand distinction is a product of the mind, and can understand this function ceasing and the difference between all things vanishing. But I can't understand the unique perceptions not still being there. Just so I can understand your viewpoint, if a person falls asleep and has a dream, would you say every separate object in the dream is = to the entirety of mind? I understand the concept that it would indeed be the entirety of mind because the entire landscape in a dream is singular, but I can still perceive difference within the dream (in spite of the fact there are no separate objects in actuality just a single image projected by mind), so I think of it as appearance of duality inside nonduality. How does your understanding differ?

I understand you on most of this. I understand that any thing is in a state of formlessness when not perceived and that ALL things inherently have no form at all and are thus infinite etc. I understand that red is red, sound is sound, etc. I understand the fact they are happening is a certainty. How I view this however is that all Qualia is EXTREME finitude. Literally one thing in absence of infinite others. Absolutely and inherently there is nothing out there etc etc and thus you are looking at nothingness/infinity in actuality, but the perception exists and perceptions themselves are all limited and finite. I don't think red the perception is infinite, evidently it is not blue when perceived as red. It COULD be perceived as blue but then it wouldn't be red. Red is red, yes, absolutely it is infinity because that's what all things are, but when redness is perceived, it is red and red alone. That is also how I would interpret a dream. Obviously the entire dream is a single mind, and that is like this here. But be it illusion or whatever you call it, it is experienced as dualistic and very finite. The existence of a finite perception does not rob it of its true nature like how a finite perception in a dream does not suddenly give that perception a reality beyond imagination taking place in mind.

Nah it makes sense. That is what I mean it becomes difficult to put differing points across, because I understand and see the validity in the statements made from the perspective they are being made from. What I think I could say is that without the trick there would be no experience ever. And that the trick can never possibly end. The trick involves something singular presenting as multiple precisely in the way a dream happens. Without that duality inside the dream there is no experience of the dream, it never takes form, there's just nothing. To fully encompass reality, I think all elements should be accounted for. Illusions are still real. When you see the snake is a rope, the fact is, the rope is still there. The fact we can't write down what each other is seeing right now is an element of multiplicity. I think this is an issue in the typical teachings, because an inexperienced seeker will immediately wonder why they can't walk through walls or possess your body etc. Or think that UV rays don't exist if we don't perceive them. The "God level imagination" we do not control explains the existence of things which nothing perceives, and also explains the concept of existent-nothings like UV... Formless "things"... I understand that no thing has an actual set appearance external from perception. That is God-imagination.

Curious, would you WANT to not care? I lost a loved one a week ago today. It is very difficult to cope, because feeling bad feels bad, but NOT feeling bad ALSO feels bad if not worse... Not being depressed makes you think you never loved them which is more depressing than anything possible.

If it wasn't appearing to be happening then you could not say you are having breakfast or that I am working. The fact it is appearing to be happening is what matters, and that is never going to end. I was glad to hear Leo on Curt's podcast as he verbalized what I think which is that you can't just will a million dollars into your drawer, as there's a deeper level of imagination that is beyond our self mind. Which explains absolutely everything. It's not the self imagining things into existence, it is indeed your perceptions which grant them an actuality/form. I get that. But it is on a deeper level than the finite mind we talk to each other from right now. If there wasn't an appearance of many (trick, illusion, whatever it may be termed) you could literally post right now precisely what I am seeing. Well, actually I don't think there would be an experience of anything because any form requires finitude. E.g. to appear red it must not appear blue and green and yellow. It might appear as those things to other creatures or w.e. but you see what I mean. I don't think infinity can be perceived. Infinity, consciousness, and nothingness, seem to be completely identical... And the process of experience appears to be exactly like dreaming, where there is an apparent world given form via perception and duality. Both the nothing and something being ultimately one, precisely like a dream.

How comes? As far as I can tell, if all objects of perception are removed (which isn't actually possible) there would be no experience ever. What would be experienced if there were no apparent things to experience? Nothingness can't be perceived in absence of an apparent something. You can say there is no subject and object when seeing red, e.g. that there is just seeing, but I think that is a pairing. I can't verbalize why because I know what it is like to "become" the perceived objects, but I think that is just recognition of absolute nonduality STILL taking place in an apparent duality. Dreams are also duality within nonduality. You could never see a landscape in a dream if you weren't seemingly located somewhere in the dream, which is then dual even though we know it is all manufactured by a singular mind. I see multiplicity of any kind as an apparent duality.

@GreenWoods This is where it is just difficult to discuss, because it's like people switch between absolute and relative. So when Leo says he is moving my body and IS me (etc) I can't say he's not, but that's not Leo the human, that's the voidness that is also presenting as Leo simultaneously. If I asked Leo the human to describe my bedroom I am currently looking at, he would be unable to reply with an accurate answer even though the same awareness is looking through both of our eyes. The object of the self mind is unique. When Leo says birth and death are fake he is talking from the absolute sense. There are separate objects within this and we could say those are born and die, exactly like how a thought comes and goes. I would say there is no self anyway just a constantly morphing object that has a sense of continuity due to memory function etc... Due to memory, the "object" which is a human mind grows and grows in scope with a backlog story to maintain a sense of self and all of that. What you call God can only know itself via duality. It is impossible for the subject to experience itself in absence of object. If there was no duality within the absolute, which is like the unified container of both something and nothing, there would be zero experience, and also it would mean no object could ever manifest as anything anyway, because all things must be X and not Y to even be perceived at all. Like how red is red and not blue... Escape from this is not a possibility as there will never be nothing in absence of something or vice versa. And somethingness is absolutely dependent upon the appearance of duality.

@GreenWoods The dreamed up things are objects right? And these objects are finite. That is why I enjoy the waves in the ocean metaphor. The object arises and falls away back into void. We do witness this happen first hand when a thought arises as an object and then falls back into void. The human mind will always be an object in duality. If you remove all contents of the human mind, experience through that lens ceases entirely. I would say perceptions are unique. I don't know who came up with "bubbles" but perceptions can connect together to form larger "objects" it seems... Obviously all of your sensory perceptions are not identical but are perceived in the same space. BUT you cannot telepathically know the contents of my mind right now. Because these objects are unique expressions right? It would be impossible to "experience" nonduality for obvious reasons. It would be impossible for experience to exist without extreme limitation and finitude. To see red you have to perceive red, and that perceived red cannot be ANYTHING ELSE but itself... Which out of an infinity, is insanely limited. Like throwing a dart into the galaxy and hitting some random atom within the entire universe, but even more limited than that. I don't believe that any amount of God-consciousness could allow the human mind of Leo to suddenly be able to see through my eyes. Because the moment there is an object like the mind it is limited to being itself like how red is red in absence of blue green etc. When the object ceases it is just destruction of object back into void. Wake up after anaesthesia and the object returns and with it, inherent limitation. The human mind will always be a finite limited object and always be in duality. The appearance of duality is eternal. It's an impossibility to bring your human mind with you when the non-experience of nonduality is achieved, so you just have some sort of general anaesthetic effect... There's not really a "you" anyway so I can't accurately say "you" were in nonduality before birth, and same upon death. But from the perspective of the human mind it is like that I think.

I would say we don't enjoy deep sleep because enjoyment is an experience which can't happen in absolute nonduality, I think we enjoy the feeling of refreshment upon waking. I also don't really think there are realms the human mind can go to given it's main location of origin is within this particular dream, which I don't think we have control over. Rupert has a video on that called something like "there's no choice in infinity". If the entire top down nature of things is altered, I find everything stays the same. Yes a human self is a brain made of atoms and neurons etc but the nature of those things is mental? So the brain is just what the human mind looks like. Destroy that and it is reduced back into energy etc which presumably has no subjective experience? So God-self can't see through us anymore but sees through others as it is doing currently. Yeah there has to be other to have experience. Without duality experience is impossible. Rupert also has great dream analogies to show that, and also some which explain well why it could not just experience infinity and can only experience things via finitude and limit. It occurs to me that to experience red for example, limit is completely necessary because you can't see red unless the red is NOT seen by the viewer as being blue and green and yellow etc. Red itself is limited to one singular thing. I think this is a necessary and natural element of infinity, rather than intelligence etc. I think that because the void has no property at all, it is literally nothing (AKA infinity AKA all potential somethings), so must experience things like intelligence inside duality. I actually found far more insight in dissociative dualistic states of being, than in the states where I am everything. It was when subject and object became distinctly split rather than merged that I could know what the subject was. And it was like the mirror looking back at nothingness you described, it can't ever be seen but can be known via the somethings. I didn't see infinity there but knew total nothing. Infinity is more a thing I felt when having psychedelic induced out of body experiences (no form for the brain to attach consciousness to so it becomes sizeless and locationless). When a human mind wins the game it doesn't exist anymore haha, and this is an absolute inevitability all of us face. The game never ends! There's no enlightenment because there is infinite duality for all eternity! Without "self", there is no entity to win the game or be enlightened, rather the object (a morphing collection of experience called the human mind) just stops being "imagined" by the void... That is what I'm thinking anyway.

Bubble = Object. Objects appear as many things. You are one of these objects. It's not possible for you to read my mind because our human minds are separate objects... It's the subject that is singular and undifferentiated. You the object (human mind) can't ever be the entirety of "God" because you are finite and limited which is the ONLY way experience and things could ever exist. I don't see any way this is escapable. If you the human ever completely merged with God you'd be dead, because the object would need to retract back into that void... And yet ither objects still exist so what has even bern accomplished?

There's no such thing as enlightenment tbh. It's not possible for duality to ever end because you can't seperate something from nothing, and it's not possible to experience actual nonduality. If "Leo" is fully enlightened he's still here experiencing me and every other living (experiencing) thing in every plane of reality, just as is the case already right now.

Rupert is brilliant, and is generally the best person to debate materialists because he ALWAYS points to direct experience, which is always irrefutable. By contrast Kastrup is science minded so challenges materialism (very well, though) via scientific type logic. Leo insists on certain vocabulary which can alienate materialists, and tends to just claim they need to become more conscious to get it. There's little point preaching to the choir, which is why I like Rupert's work. He did a podcast episode with Sam Harris snd Sam could not disagree. As long as you use direct experience no person could ever claim you to be wrong.

There is void, that is an absolute infinity. Because of that, it necessitates that there be all things else it would be limited. As such infinite somethings akin to "dreams" come with this void. The void alone cannot ever be experienced, only known through the "dreams" like a mirror reflecting back at nothingness. Your mind is one of the dreamed "things". This includes literally any mental activity you are aware of. Thoughts w.e., these are objects which the void is aware of. The void is the thing which is aware of all of our minds simultaneously. The mind is an object which is why it doesn't know the contents of my mind. The void cannot carry data across from one to the other etc as it is total nothingness. Zero properties.

I share my ideas on this topic often and freely. I suppose if my concepts and metaphors were very good like Rupert Spira, I might amass a following and then be considered a teacher. It's probably not something a person decides to become, it's probably more that others decide to follow them and their words because they make sense etc.

The source of creation is not something you have control over even though you are it. You're talking from the perspective of the self mind, which is itself an object inside/owned by it. So the self mind went (mostly) away and recognized void. And now it as the object thinks it can control the subject (void) which it seems its also interpreting as sentient etc (hence thinking it has choices and will). That's impossible, how could nothingness ever be changed or have any property? Absolutely nothing will change about reality after mystical revelation except perhaps your subjective view of it. "You" the self imagining other people etc is a bad way of teaching. The Godhead is imagining other people and things, and experiences it as form through your human mind (object). You call the Godhead consciousness. When perception happens "things" can take on an actuality, so the human mind is allowing form to come into being via finite perception, but it's not the source of anything at all.

It's impossible to imagine nothingness so I imagine a giant blank piece of paper or blackness or whatever. When spacetime is imagined and becomes manifest in this void, has it all happened beginning to end already? Or does the construct of time mean that even if you were in that void, you would not know the totality of events?

That's the perspective I am talking from. Take a void. Now put space and time in it. Metaphorically speaking does time move through the void like a movie reel through a lense? Or is it already there start to end?

Which me is still conscious? I don't believe the self-me experiences a subjective conscious viewpoint when the self-mind is gone. I only think nothingness is conscious BECAUSE it's the only way by which "somethings" can have an actuality. I don't think it has anything to do with the self-mind at all. I don't think the self-mind has any consciousness whatsoever. I think it's a "thing" like all other things. I envision a blank piece of paper which is nothingness. Draw some shape on it which represents perception. And then the void is conscious of that perception/form. Now erase the shape. The paper goes nowhere but the shape just vanishes. That's what I see happening to the self-mind... Consciousness continues because if it didn't there wouldn't be anything which is impossible. But I don't think consciousness is something the self mind owns but vice versa I think the self-mind is like a temporary puppet plaything. Actual nonduality can never be experienced, because you need a subject and object relation for experience to take place. Probably when Leo is saying cessation is imaginary, he means for You capitalized. The self mind stops experiencing space and time, and you simply teleport from one time to another, if in a coma perhaps quite a while later. That is the self-mind cutting out leaving only You. Little-you is gone in that period of time.

The thing is that there isn't a you that loses the illusion of duality and then comes back to it... That illusion persists non-stop (it can't ever stop) and you the self-mind vanishes. Even from moment to moment it's not like there's a constant you. Just capital You which is just the awareness without attribute. The continuous self-you experience is due to memory and other functions of the human mind. But the self-you object is always morphing. There's not really a self-you entity that continues unchanged from moment to moment. Even on bufo trips like Leo does, there is still duality, and the experience is still happening to Leo (hence we don't all trip out every time he smokes it, and only he has the memory of that experience). If Leo experienced nonduality that would be cessation AKA nothingness. It can't be experienced at all. Only duality can be experienced and that's WHY duality is permanent or there'd just be nothingness which is impossible.

She had bile duct cancer which had spread. She was a victim of a blood transfusion mishap many many many years ago which gave her a lifelong liver condition. Before she died she was very incoherent. She became coherent for just a brief moment and what she wanted to communicate is that she had a dream. When my grandad asked what she dreamt of, she said "cross" and smiled then went back to being incoherent. We think she saw some sort of religious imagery like the crucifix... I don't really think the exact symbols matter but rather what they represent about the mindspace... Perhaps she reached some sort of understanding of something divine. I don't really know what or how I feel about the matter. I cried for about 2 minutes otherwise I am most often feeling some sort of general difficulty... I'm not sure if there is a delayed reaction waiting for me.

No because you are just an object like a thought. There's not actually any person at all. Like a thought, the human you takes form then retracts back into formlessness or nothingness (AKA "consciousness"). It's You which is eternal, and the illusion of duality. There's no point to this except for reasons pertaining to the self you.

It's because there's you and You. The little you being an object or thing like any other. You capitalized being conscious nothingness which is unified indivisible and one. This is exceptionally confusing. Teachings and awakenings and meditation and drugs are games, no different from playing GTA or some shit. Do it if you ENJOY it like how you would with anything else. Because ultimately it is about bringing little you into alignment with You, but it's impossible because little you is an object and to fully integrate into You, the self you vanishes completely. So there's nobody left to experience the benefits of your work if you ever did achieve it, and if you don't you are still in the appearance of duality regardless. And actually the appearance of duality is utterly inescapable because nothing and something can't be seperated... So even when little you "wins the game" and disappears, You continue to experience duality eternally... Capital You does not give a FUCK about your pain or spiritual growth or desires, it just observes them always impartial.

I feel like it's literally useless. My mental state never shifts from normality until I take something... I've never had any kind of insight via meditation without doing something like smoking small amounts of DMT midway.

The idea of dependency of thing on nothing and the sungularity of that unit is absolute brilliance.

I don't think it can be used for any serious endeavour. You would have to chew the leaves instead. Smoking extract you're in the loony bin for a little while and your mind literally cannot comprehend what is even happening. Let alone grasp any meaning. Over time I have found the same with DMT. It just does weird shit, with SOME chance of a mystical experience. There's nothing "insightful" about your pal becoming a tiny chef made of diamonds warping around the room and w.e. the fuck other weird shit happens when a trip really gets going. Or the alien disco shit. Mystical experiences with n,n-DMT are possible but I'd say 5% or less chance. The odds heighten if you stack with LSD. I also have found microdosing DMT in conjunction with meditation to be much more reliable. Like chewing Salvia leaves vs smoking extract. Freebase n,n-DMT is like madness if you really hit it proper. But meditation and then smoking a small amount with earphones and flute music or w.e., I had some profound insight that way.