amorri1010

@Opo What examples are you looking for? Historical examples of previous socialist states implementing market tactics/allowing private ownership (Lenin's New Economic Policy in 1922, modern day China specifically the Special Economic Zones opened up by Deng Xiaoping in the late 70s)? Examples of the birth pangs of capitalism from feudalism (basically the entire mercantilist era along with the Columbian exchange and early colonialism, also countless serf/peasant revolts across Europe in concurrence with the fall of monarchism as a political form and the instantiation of a dominant bourgeois class)? I will be fully honest with everyone here that I'm not the most familiar with the intricacies of the Economic Calculation Problem and am not qualified to put forward a definitive refutation of it on purely economic terms. My cursory knowledge of it however does indicate that there are some core misunderstandings and assumptions it makes about the socialist project and socialist economics which I refered to in my last post. Hope this is satisfactory.

@LfcCharlie4 There has never been an attempt at a fully market-less economy, only a movement towards more public ownership and central planning. Even the most staunchly socialist states of the past recognized markets as a necessity in socialist transition out of capitalism. Any Marxist worth his salt will tell you that these sort of economic changes dont happen overnight, they are protracted historical processes just like the beginning of capitalism and market economies were. The argument against the economic calculation problem isn't that a fully planned economy taking over immediately would be better, it's that there are alternatives to market driven economies when the value forms implemented in society are changed (which happens over a very extended period of time). The issue is that the economic calculation problem is an obscurantist attempt to disprove alternatives to market economies by being intentionally disingenuous and dishonest about economic factors and the project socialist are trying to advocate for.

@Leo Gura That's completely fair and I even agree personally on the inevitability of markets. Like I said I think this needs to be fleshed out more in another post where I can put forward some real positions and have a discussion around those topics. I have some personal stuff to take care of at the moment but as soon as that's out of the way I'll be posting here about what I believe Marxism has to offer as a viable alternative to Capitalism. Looking forward to some serious and constructive discourse.

@DocWatts @Husseinisdoingfine @Leo Gura Y'all are all assuming that there is a consensus among some monolithic group of "Socialists" on markets, their merits and viability. There's so much more nuance here you're missing. The far-left is incredibly balkanized and fragmented on individual issues like this, with a wide variety of opinions and theories. Note that just because one group of people calls themselves socialist and posits a certain ideological position, this is in no way representative of some sort of complete and static expression of these arguments. All this means is that there are more variations of thought and policy to be confronted in revolutionary politics than previously imagined.

@Leo Gura Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I think you have some very legitimate points that need to be wrestled with if an ideology like Marxism is to be proven effective in some capacity for the future of humanity. My goal with the original post was to provide a plea for historical and theoretical investigation of said ideology, not provide a defense of it's efficacy necessarily, though it probably came through implicitly that I believe Marxism has much more merit than most here. I'd like to answer your concerns from a Marxist point of view and engage with this debate more fully, however I believe to do that with the most rigour and nuance possible I will be making an entirely new post regarding this considering the debate interests me so much and I haven't seen anyone on this forum who shares many of my views concerning this. Plus I would rather leave this post as a place to invite skepticism about traditional narratives and make an entirely new post for the proposal of the alternative (s).

Hello all, I've been a long time viewer of Leo's channel and reader of this forum though this is my first time posting as this is the first time I've felt compelled to contribute to the discourse here Now, I have noticed a concerning trend that is on the rise of late here on this forum, in the comments section of Leo's videos, and in Leo's videos themselves wherein there is a worrying amount of information thrown around that is taken as fact, truth, common sense, etc. without verification or investigation by the individuals presenting the information and the individuals consuming it. To be more specific, this almost entirely revolves around the accepted consensus opinion on left/far-left idiologies, particularly socialism and communism, and to an absurd degree regarding the historical instances of former socialist states (PRC, USSR). Before I go any further, please note that this is not me explicitly advocating for the ideologies and societies that I just listed. This is a plea for historical humility and curiosity around existing beliefs, something I think all of us here agree is vital. It's important for all of us to understand the relativity of history, that the subjective objectivication preformed so often under the materialist paradigm and the sciences (as pointed out by Leo countless times) absolutely applies here as well. Most all of us have grown up in Capitalist societies and that has had a severe impact on the way we understand history and ways of being that are foreign to us. For a lot of people Capitalism and it's ideology is taken as an absolute, conditioned into us since birht. And you better believe this comes with an entire view of history, economics, politics, etc. and the potential alternatives to the state of things as they currently exist. Ever notice how you don't learn about Marxism in High School Economics class?? On this community (and of course in the US and all of the capitalist world) so so many historical "facts" and political talking points about Marxism/Socialism/Communism are taken for granted, unverified and seen as common sense (a deceptive term everyone here should be on the lookout for). From "communism killed 100 million people" and all it's variants to "previous socialist states were totalitarian dictatorships" to "socialism doesn't work because <fill in the blank>". All of these are either generally accepted or opposed/corrected in the most acceptable way possible instead of critically investigating the premises and historical information they are based off of. I should note here that I am not here to tell you that "communism is infallible and perfect and all of you are wrong", I'm not explicitly giving you my opinions and biases and conclusions here, merely imploring you to critically examine your own. I, like every single other entity out there surviving, have an ego, preconceived notions etc. and it is from this that I'm writing to you but it in no way means that I have a dogma to preach to you. Also, concerning the burden of proof here, it's on you if you decide to have conclusions and positions in this discourse, do not ask me to prove to you whatever ideological or historical position you think I have based on what I've said here. That would be completely missing the point. My understanding of the world, of history, economics, and politics is constantly evolving and if yours isn't that should be a warning sign to you. Now why is questioning Capitalist narratives and thouroughly understanding Communism important to the work we're doing here? Because the way we view history, economics, and politics completely changes the way we interpret, exist in, and create reality. It goes without saying that on this sub we can all be very heady at times and it seems to me that this has overriden the investigation of our material reality and history for the sake of conceptual models and paradigms of reality. Your generalized understanding and conceptual models are built on your awareness of and interpretation of specific occurrences and individualized phenomena! Your paradigms have to make sense when applied to current event and history, and if they don't they're dysfunctional and require growth. The general informs the particular and the particular informs the general. The explanatory power of something like Spiral Dynamics only has validity in relative position to your conception of reality. The reason we all like Spiral Dynamics so much is for it's pragmatism and utility in our daily lives, the general applied to the specific. So when we discover new information we were previously unaware of or the information that we previously held has been proven to be false what shall we do?? I know how frightening it can be to question reality as you know, I assume all of us do as that is exactly the work we are all supposedly doing here. I'm imploring you all to do the same to your conception of Communism, Socialism and Marxism. Stop diverting the discussion of these topics to Social Democracy, they're not the same thing! Just because you think Social Democracy is good and that capitalism has problems doesn't mean you actually understand the mechanisms and historical nuance of the past 150 years of Socialist and Communist movements or the intricacies of Marxist philosophy, economics, and political theory. Actually read Marx, Lenin, Mao, and Stalin. Learn about lesser known Socialists like Fred Hampton, Paul Robeson, Alexandra Kollontai, Eugene Debs, Fridah Kaloh, and others. Listen to self described Communists throughout history and from the present day. Actually find the written historical and political claims made against communism and follow the sources for their claims back to their source, you may be surprised what you find. Calling something extreme, radical, totalitarian, and dictator is just a cheap and easy excuse to not investigate what you think you know. I sympathize with the hesitation and confusion, sorting a lifetime of conditioning and through lenses of reality is not the easy thing to do but it is the most integral mode of being and relating to history if your goal is to be a holistic thinker with integrity and honesty. By the way, how holistically we view Socialism and Communism directly effects how effective and explanatory Spiral Dynamics is. Almost any time I hear anyone here speak on what they think Stage Green's political and economic views are they have some things right but are often very confused and misinformed as to what these ideologies represent and seek to accomplish. This insight of how we define and understand Communism and Socialism applies to all stages not just Green! What if the previous socialist states in the USSR and China weren't actually Stage Blue totalitarian dictatorships as almost every one here believes is uncontested fact?? How would that change the way we view the social progress of humanity and every stage in Spiral Dynamics?? The conceptual model itself is not to be done away with necessarily, but the data and information utilized in it's application needs more rigorous updating and this can only make our analysis stronger, more conscious, and more integral. As I know he has spoken on this subject in the past and has mentioned making a "Capitalism vs. Socialism" video in the future I want to take this final section to speak to Leo particularly and implore him in accordance with everything I've laid out above to please investigate very thouroughly his understanding of far-left anticapitalist idiologies such as Communism and Socialism. Leo, you have a large and highly receptive audience that is incredibly influenced by the things you say and the paradigms and models you put forward. I know that this may be a quite personal debate as I understand you lived in the USSR briefly as a child during its dissolution and your parents were Russian, I have great respect your life experiences and only hope that they do not cloud the way you relate to these topics. The way that this issue is handled has large reprocussions for the way hundreds of thousands of not more of your viewers understand history, politics, and reality. Thank you all so much for reading through this and giving me the time to express what I believe is a vital conversation to be had over the concious political project we are attempting to engage in. Love, Adam "...it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to ruthless criticism of all that exists, ruthless both in the sense of not being afraid of the results it arrives at and in the sense of being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be." -Karl Marx