kinesin

Why though? Why the grand gesture?

@Dodo It is literal though, that's what I'm trying to explain. It's both entirely mundane and also mindblowingly supernatural. The state I described requires a clear and focused mind - without a meditative state it's quite literally impossible to discern such information. To word it differently, the clear meditative state gives a person access to telepathic and precognitive abilities. The Ronaldo example is a very good one - the reason why he's able to do such a thing isn't because he's merely tracking the ball with his eyes or calculating its trajectory in his head, he's embodying it. That's what it means to 'be' the ball, and that's the sense by which it's possible to directly 'be' another person. It's the exact same receptive meditative mindset which produces the result.

@Dodo You're projecting your own interpretation onto what I'm saying, and that's causing you difficulty in understanding it. If we were at a train station or something right now, I'd be able to help you understand. I'm talking about having a clear mind and simply observing a person, watching their posture and gait, the tension in their body, small movements in their face and hands, the direction of their gaze, their breathing pattern etc etc. By simply observing these things with a clear mind, information is recieved. It isn't filtered through the conscious mind, I'm not talking about using that information to reason that a person is feeling X emotion or percieving Y thing, I'm talking about recieving it directly by observing them, much in the same way that you recieve an understanding of a sound's origin simply by hearing it. This is very basic stuff, I think you're simply overthinking the complexity of it. I'm saying that a very normal, usual human ability *is* telepathy, only people don't generally think of it in such terms but they probably should, because that's really what it is. It's a little like how if I throw a ball in the air, you're able to predict where it's going to land. Would you say that's because you had a 'vision of the future' where you saw the ball landing in a specific place? Probably not... but why not though, really? It's a very normal human ability, but it *is* undeniably a case of seeing the future. I believe this communication issue is rooted in fiction and stories, personally - many people have come to believe a word like 'telepathy' or 'precognition' has connotations above and beyond what it actually does, reaching way into supernatural territory, and that stops them from being able to appreciate the reality of more mundane applications of it.

@Dodo You never get all of the information, and I never claimed to, but you do get enough to claim that an experience has been directly percieved. As for claims requiring radical evidence - you're borrowing reasoning from science which simply doesn't apply here, so it'd be foolish to even try to apply it. According to the scientific method even saying 'I have a conscious experience' is a radical claim which cannot be measured or proved, but we accept it to be true based on other nonscientific reasonings.

@erik8lrl I believe @Dodo's issue here is that they're taking your claims overly literally and envisioning something supernatural. My interpretation is that you're essentially referring to the fact that a highly focused state of empathetic observation can give you a direct perception of the inner experience of another person. I know that this ability isn't universal because many times I've been surprised to find that other people couldn't do it, but I myself can 'read minds' so to speak, when people-watching. I can't tell you the precise content of their thoughts of course, but I can get the colour of them, and I can sense their perceptions. I can mentally 'put myself in their head' and get a mental image of what they're seeing and experiencing, from their perspective. There's nothing mystical about it - even explaining it like this makes it sound more special than it is, but I just wanted to add that I understand what @erik8lrl is talking about. With a silent mind and an empathetic focus, all that information can be recieved from observation.

@Leo Gura This is fair. I believe that ultimately, all a reasonable person can ask for is to make whatever efforts are within our power to minimize needless suffering, but not to completely erase it at all costs. Tragic outcomes cannot be completely immunized against, there's no set of rules or regulations which would completely and utterly protect every individual from even the slightest harm. That said, the fact that it's impossible to negate 100% of the issue doesn't mean we shouldn't seek to address even 1% of it. Your brand, this community, is ultimately a fluid living organism which must be shaped by truth and informed by the heart. When situations like this or Connor occur, this is essentially God knocking on the window and saying "psst... you may want to change something a bit here". This is the sentiment behind people's concern for the future of the community - this is why people are prompting you to consider what can possibly be done. You know I've been an outspoken critic of you, but I consider myself to be a fair one. You've listened to the concerns of the community, you've listened to the hints God has given and I respect you for being fluid enough to respond and evolve appropriately here.

@Leo Gura Then take your leave and allow the discussion to continue. You have no reason whatsoever to lock this thread and put a halt to this very enjoyable and respectful thread, simply because you are losing patience with it.

EDIT: Realized I was wrong.

This is very wise indeed.

Perhaps the most appropriate thing would be for Leo to put out a video acknowledging the situation and addressing the important overlap between 'everything is illusion/dream' and a healthy acknowledgment that things are simultaneously real and actual.

@Tim R What is 'an authority' in your mind? Leo certainly presents himself as an authority - he makes declarative statements almost every time he posts. People post threads regularly asking for Leo's clarifications on certain issues, indicating that they consider his inputs to be authoritative. To be quite honest, when people suggest that there aren't people in this community who hang on Leo's every word, I feel that I'm being gaslit. I see it so often, it's plain as day.

Yeah, that thread is indeed quite a good example of it. I found one of his comments in there to be a particularly egregious demonstration of his lack of insight. Truly, Leo is living in a dream world and needs to wake up and realise he's speaking to actual, living people when he gives such poorly thought out teachings.

@Bojan V The context of those replies was a thread started by @CBDinfused asking about Leo's thoughts on what happens after we die. His comments were absolutely about physical death, don't even try to gaslight anyone by denying it.

@Tim R "Leo can't be held responsible for anything his followers/listeners do, it's 100% up to them." is a cop out. That may be legally true, but it isn't morally true. In truth if Leo wants to be a responsible 'teacher' to so many people, his approach will need to change fundamentally. He simply isn't careful enough, considering the number of people out there who mistake him for an enlightened holder of absolute truth. He's far too glib, he gives short superficial answers to questions which deserve far more care. Just a few days ago I saw him post this, which at the time I called out as irresponsible. It's a good example of the issue -

Here's the issue - There is a reason why responsible spiritual teachers purposefully withhold advanced teachings from students until they've demonstrated clear evidence of having reached preceding levels necessary to understand them. There is a reason why a responsible spiritual teacher has a close, in-person relationship with their students. Leo is not a responsible teacher. Leo is simply a guy like any of us, a regular person who is trying to navigate his way along the spiritual path. Why do we fall into the trap of believing that Leo is anything more than this? Because Leo has turned his personal spiritual journey into a brand, in order to make money. This public image, the youtube channel with many subscribers, the forum, all of it creates a public perception of 'Leo Gura' which is much larger and more significant than the man himself. The fact is, many of us here have long seen the warning signs of these dangers. Not only the most tragic examples such as Connor and Soonhei, but also the countless smaller examples we see nearly every day where a person comes to the forum experiencing mental distress only to be told by Leo, Nahm or others that their feelings and situation are nothing more than a dream. I find myself pointing out regularly that it is not helpful to simply state advanced teachings as if they are facts, without even acknowledging the mindset of the listener. Something needs to change. A personal spiritual journey isn't supposed to be public like this, it isn't supposed to be presented as if it were teachings from an enlightened master. Spirituality should not be reduced to the status of a brand. The fact that Leo Gura is generally thought to be a cult leader outside of this community is a major issue - those people are not entirely off-base, they're referring to something which Leo himself is fully aware of. Because he has a brand and a known public name, Leo's words carry more weight than they are worth, and that is a dangerous thing.

@Inliytened1 Like I said, I believe that phenomena are simultaneously illusory and completely real. A flower is a nonlocal part of a unified field of universal energy... but it's also a flower. My belief about the nature of enlightenment is a dream, I know that, but I also treat the subjective human experience as real and have no desire anymore to reduce all of my perceptions and actions to nothingness.

@Inliytened1 Based on what? Your own belief that an enlightened person is someone who has overcome the projections? That only makes sense from the Leo 'everything is just a dream' perspective. I don't share that view, I believe that phenomena are simultaneously illusory and completely real. I believe that enlightened people are ultimately very caring, balanced, serene individuals - Leo doesn't strike me as that at all.

If Leo is genuinely enlightened and Frank isn't, then I don't want to be enlightened. Just looking at the content of their characters, way of life, manners of being etc Frank is leagues above Leo. Call me biased, but I expect an enlightened person to have a smile on their face and their heart on their sleeve. Although Leo says things which sound enlightened, he always does so in such a way that contradicts the things he says, and demonstrates a *very* high level of ego, far higher than even the average person posting on these forums.

Very true. This kind of thing is unfortunately common, like for example children who grew up in abusive, violent households who believe wholeheartedly that every family is like that behind the scenes. Imo it's a form of defense mechanism where the person denies reality in order to preserve their own belief that they aren't missing out on anything.

Do your parents not love each other? How about your grandparents? Any uncles and aunts who love each other? My own parents have true love, they've had it for over 40 years. The fact that you don't believe it's possible indicates to me that you simply haven't witnessed it anywhere in your own life, and that failure to engage in love is the root of your issue for sure.

I'm not sure that Leo thinks anybody really, truly understands it other than himself.

@Valach If you're here posting on a forum such as this, that indicates to me that you're deeply interested in becoming a more aware, moral person. If you're going to be in a relationship with somebody, they'll have to be on that wavelength with you. It sounds to me that the girl you're describing has a lot of trauma, chaos and biases which she seems to have no desire to overcome. If you truly want to move beyond these behaviours, you can't be involved in them. Take physical attraction and trauma-bonding out of the picture and you'll find that where it counts, you have very little in common with her and the relationship is doomed to fail.

@F A B My suggestion to you is to play around with the polar extremes of your breath. Take the deepest breath you can, hold it in and observe the sensation of doing so. Separately, exhale as much air from your lungs as possible and observe the sensation of that too. Breathe fast, observe the sensation, breathe slow, observe the sensation. After you've done those, consider it the end of your practice, but then simply notice how your breathing feels once it returns to its normal rhythms. That may help.

I think to most normal people, the prospect of becoming enlightened isn't much different from the prospect of becoming an exorcist. They see it as a strange thing in the world which monks do, where you sit around smiling and maybe floating up into the air. The idea that they themselves could do it seems absurd. That said, this doesn't necessarily mean they're completely out of touch with the actual meaning underlying the term. Most people are aware for example that when a person directly faces the prospect of their own death, that it often results in a radical shift of perception toward 'living in the moment', being more compassionate and not getting so caught up in worldly affairs.

@Zion He was quite an archetypal green, I'd say.