Kksd74628

@Someone here Haven't you still understood that it's assumption that memory points towards anything actual?

Voting gives people false sense of control over decision making about political, environmental and sociological topics. If you want to have any reasonable impact on how people think you should start writing to big audience, making youtube videos or joining to public discussions. Almost no one of the people voting do know even the basic things about politics and therefore their "opinion" about it doesn't make any sense. That shows why being active about politics and thinking is incredibly essential in order to come into any smart conclusion. Politics is science of how to lead country or humanity to best place possible and there shouldn't be "opinions". They just don't count. There are also other problems in our politics such as there are always sides which by definition means that our politics aren't holistic. It shouldn't be about whose perspective is the best, but how we can combine all the perspectives to one thing and have wise decision based on all the information we got. I also understand the point of voting which just tries to prevent people with more power to destroy people who are lacking it. I even agree that this is a good goal, but I'd say that we should evolve our way of having control about decisions, because voting is just too oldish and superficial. Voting could only work if people who are allowed to vote know politics, system thinking and models like spiral dynamics extremely well and even in that scenario it'd be better to put those people just to place where people actually have control over anything important. We have internet and it should be used like 100x more to talk and discuss about politics, because it is that important in grand scheme of things. It's incredibly stupid that our school system barely teaches us about different political systems and some core points. Also in my school in Finland we had just like 2 required philosophy cources so what the fuck ... As you can't vote in physics you shouldn't in political things, because both should be just truths about which works well to achieve things we value and also what we value are basically same between people. I am now talking in structure level like we all value freedom to express ourself as we like, peace, happiness, love, equality etc. Of course in the content level how we do those things can vary and a lot, but that's not the point I am trying to make. I agree that goverment shouldn't for example force everyone to dance, because based on the science that makes people happiest on average or something. That'd be just idiocy. Good society can be built with or without voting, but right now I am suggesting that without it and by making couple adjustments to how things work we'd be faster where we want to go as a whole. We should have places in every town where people who are interested could practice having political discussions and that'd boost our overall skill of having these conversations and it'd connect people better to "opposite" views. There could be also some teachers who tell when the conversation isn't going to the right direction. As you can see there are millions of different ways to impact and voting is maybe the one of the worst at least how it works right now. -joNi-

@zurew I can't continue on it bacause that is the backbone of any deep conversation. If we don't even have same direction where we're trying to go with our car I can't show you why my path would be better than yours, because it wouldn't because it would just lead you somewhere you don't want to go. So you have to explain that thing I asked from you or we can't go further with this discussion. I aknowledge that otherwise it would just circle around without any progress. So what's your take on my question?

@zurew I am going to answer to this question after you explain to me that how you could have any other value in top of your value hierarchy than love, happiness or peace of mind.

@Carl-Richard Yeah, but the problem you guys are having is that you don't see that I am not trying to break democracy and build weird totalitarian society, but I am actually trying to make it better. Maybe taking voting away would be good or maybe it wouldn't but we can't say that for sure without first having proper conversation about it like we are trying to have right now. Point of thinking from extreme perspectives is that it reveals usually biases, traumas or something else. That's excatly the same thing Leo did with his pedophile example. Let's not go deeper in it in that thread though and I'll give my own take on it later. Basically in the most basic form I am trying to make filter which gives little advatage for people who actually understand the subject which in this case is system thinking, how to lead country and how to think and express oneself holistically. I honestly think that - giving this little advantage for people who study the thing they're going to talk about - is going to have positive impact on our society in a big picture. It's like teaching in school requires going through the learning process first. You can't teach if you don't know what you're teaching. Same goes that you can't impact society positively if you don't know what is going to impact it positively. That's also why people's idea of what makes society better doesn't really matter, because they don't know it. To know it we need to make tests, studies and scientific experiments. We need to study people better what they want in average and what actually makes them the happiest. When we start to have better idea of that, we can the first time start making proper politics for everyone. That's what's required to move from tier 1 to tier 2 type of political decision making.

@Carl-Richard I see how that could be, but I think there are other things which play bigger role in that thing you described such as having scheduled routine, pushing yourself and seeing that you're capable and also dealing with your traumas that try to make you believe otherwise. So I'd say that if what you said would be the only reason not to take voting away I'd say that let's fix people's problems other way and also take voting away. So there are 3 agendas that I have in this thread. To make people more openminded to weird thought games, teach people how to break down complicated subjects and one is for me to see what are all the main points why voting is important.

@zurew So now we agree that happiness/love is the thing that we both try to have, but you wanted to make sure that I understand that development plays key role in that thing, I agree. Now we get back to where we started and also you see why I asked that imaginary question. The point was to show you that whatever makes people the most happy in the big picture should be correct decision. So now you also see why my statement - IF taking voting away WOULD make our society the most loving and the happiest that should be the correct decision - was actually right. What we are left is question would it actually make us the most loving and the happiest. So maybe you start to see that we aren't so different like it has maybe looked from our conversations in this forum. The difference is that I always try to break things down to little things until we agree on the little things and then we can combine those parts to the main point until we agree on it too. That's how tier 2 mature discussion looks like to me. So the key insight that you could have is that we actually don't dissagree on things, but my way of expressing myself is a little different from normal people you see in this forum or almost anywhere. It takes time to get me, be patient my friend . Love yo <3

@zurew Fine, let's make it even easier for you. If you'd live only for 1 minute, would you choose to make it the best experience possible or to read some book to gain development on any choosen topic.

@Carl-Richard What do you mean by self-efficacy and how does it relate to the topic?

@zurew That just shows that you didn't understand the question. I agree that development is important part to be happy, but you should see that my question was imaginary. In the scenario, that I made up, the point was that you either get development or happiness. Don't argue if you get happiness from development or vice versa, because that wasn't in the question in the first place. The whole question is just about if you could chooce only one which one you'd choose happiness or development. That's an easy question if you don't think it too complicatedly. I am trying to guide you to understand my perspective.

@zurew Which life would you choose. A: Beautiful happy life (Btw this is overall better) B: Sadder life, but with more development. (This is overall worse)

@zurew If hypothetically giving voting away would increase happiness that would be good decision. That is the thing I think we should first agree and after that we can test if that for real would happen and if not what is restricting that and could we adjust something so that happens. Could you agree on that point with me?

@zurew I said that we should change the voting number to paper to more voting by other actions more systematically. It would actually boost the good impact smart people could abuse. Again the reason I don't like this normal voting option is, because it gives false sense of power and that makes people too passive to actually stand for good things. That we can vote our "opinions" leads our politicans also to fight their "opinions" instead of actually going for holistic conversations which we need. I just showed one possibility and as I said we can build great society with any system. It was just great thought experiment.

@zurew What if nowadays things go downhill and society starts to exploit you ... ... ... vote more ? Don't you see that voting isn't the only way to impact to your society? I never said that suddenly everyone is slave to couple people governing whole society. If you really think that our number to paper based voting is the only thing keeping our society in its place then you're too brainwashed, because that just isn't true. There are alternative ways to impact and I think they're just better and before you ask what they are read my previous messages so we don't need to circle around this thing forever. Who said that I was speaking for totalitarian system ?

@zurew It's not about will people vote for them or not. What I am talking about is that would it be beneficial or not. Those are completely different layers of discussions. If it would be beneficial, but people wouldn't vote for it then that would just prove my point that voting oldish way number to paper is not the most optimal way to do politics, because we don't get the best decisions available. If happiness, love and peace would be optimized with zero free will then in that imaginary case that would be the correct decision. Love is the last measurement for are we doing well and I agree that freedom can boost that, but if it'd really be the case that society with zero free will would have more love than one with some of it then we should go for the society with zero free will. That's an easy choice to make if you aren't too biased to see that. People who don't care too much about politics, have enough understanding about politics and take real action would have less say. You are correct and that's the point in that thought game. We'd be better off without sheep people voting for whatever looks best on the surface level. Do you really think that we get the most optimal opinion from people when the majority of people vote based on all stupid reasons like their biases, traumas and their favourite person doing the politics? We misuse the power already so that wouldn't be anything new. People with more followers on social media have stronger impact than the one only voting and everyone deplatforms people so they can't express their opinions. Youtube or even that forum doesn't allow you to to discuss the negative sides of corona politics for example and people are so well brainwashed that they even think that this cencoring is done with good reasons. Don't begin talking to me about misusing power, because our system is doing it already so well that majority of people don't even see it. Again that is the point of taking voting away so we break the false sense of control in decision making among the people living in that society.

@LSD-Rumi I am happy that our dialogue made you realize something important . Also if you want to go deeper into these subjects and life development just pm me and we can have voice conversation about whatever you like <3 With love -joNi-

@LSD-Rumi I'd say that love is the most important thing yeah, but without proper peace the connection can be hard to find.

@LSD-Rumi I'd say learning zen-teachings makes you cooler person imo. I haven't met too many people who naturally seek for peace. Everyone is just in hurry to go to next moment. I don't know what you refer to by peace zombie, because that sounds extremely interesting to me. I am not saying that you can't do anything in your day to day life. I don't say that you should be lazy, but when it's time for enjoyment you should just relax, stop your thinking process and focus on what is actually happening. All these zen teachings teach people to slow down and I'd say that in nowaday society that'd be really appreciated just by looking how stressed people are.

@Batman Excatly! It should be like there are different subjects and we shouldn't fight subject against another one, because the point is that you learn what you want to learn. Maybe it is that doing psychedelics and focusing to experiences makes you realize something these monks don't, but I'd argue that those monks feel more peaceful in day to day life. Also Neo-Advaita people usually train their mentality to more relaxed mature one which is something which is very cool and important to the opposite of what we have right now in our society.

Taking couple people who talk about no-self from youtube to present whole Neo-Advaita group would be equivalent to me make Connor Murphy present whole group of people who say you are god. If you decide to have discussion about these subjects atleast don't attack their weakest side, because it would be abusing argumenting tactics to seemingly win. The point I am trying to make is that Neo-Advaita and those buddhists who aim for peace are more useful for masses than these ultimate god teachers and that's why they are popular. It's called free market, boys.

@zurew I already stated in my original post that in the content level things can vary and a lot, but this discussion was never about it. Point is to gather information and do smart decisions based on those. For example adding philosophy, system thinking and maybe even spirituality in some form to our education system would be overall good decision. In that we don't need to know how individual people use those in practice, because those are important even to your thought process, self-development and happiness. Only reason we haven't done those decisions is because people who vote don't see those possibilities. They are wrong then. Freedom can be important in order to get happiness, but if you'd need to give little freedom away to get happiness, any mature human being would choose that, because that's a correct decision. It's like asking which is more important the overall taste in your soup or the amount of pepper used in it. Those who argue for freedom argue that the amout of pepper is more important than the overall taste (happiness, love and peace of mind). They miss the bigger picture and that's why those shouldn't even be allowed to vote in the first place. They clearly lack understanding how they should think about these things. You make it sound like we take all control away from people when in actuality that boosts control in smart people who actually put effort to go to discussions, make youtube videos and essays. Always if you want you can even send your ideas to the people thinking about the correct decision or maybe you could finally put yourself into the equation and study the school that I explained and you could go yourself to participate in politics. Again I see from your type of writing that you're pretty lost in the idea that voting nowadays gives any control to people. Wake up from the matrix, because by only voting you have zero impact, period.

@zurew Basically people should just participate more into political discussions in an internet if they seek for any reasonable amount of impact on how things unfold in our society. Everyone's top value is love and that could be good starting point to our politics. Holistical thinkers for sure would have better solutions than what we have right now. I am not seeking for perfect equation nor I never said that. What I said was that we should treat political questions the same way we treat physics which is not through biased "opinions". Opinions don't change what is good for us and what isn't. Our opinion based politics is just very childish and oldish approach which has nothing to do what really works.

@Danioover9000 The question which remains is that why we need to vote after we know hard facts about which works and which doesn't?

@KH2 We continue politics normally maybe trying to aim little more holistic sides for example by requiring education which includes study of system thinking, important models and morality which is based on high values. Only big difference actually is just that people start to vote by their actions like the videos, debates and essays that I showed. Point is to activate society by breaking down the illusion of control that all the sheep have.

@zurew The point is that it is not people's fault if the system is made so it didn't take into account their needs and basic behaviours.