BadHippie

Vaccines are a proven concept to you, not to me. And they aren't the best solution to this COVID-19-fiasco imo either. Just because you have a different truth, it doesn't mean my truth is better or worse than yours. Modern medecine is mostly about fighting symptoms, not the cause. Same with vaccines (sure you could argue they are trying to fix the cause, but I have a different model of "viruses" and "sickness"). My model works for me, so it's "true" to me for now, until I find the flaws and fix them. Well maybe some people here do that, I personally don't even eat finished food or at restaurant as it's mostly shit... I test my psychedelics and other substances I study. I don't see anything that's good for me and my health on the ingredient list of the vaccines so I'll pass, the same way I don't eat at McDonald's because I don't like what's inside.

What´s with assumptions and this forum here? What use does this post have from you? That´s just my personal experience. And I studied Spiral Dynamics a lot. I have friends who wrote their bachelor on that topic. Yellow just means they have yellow aspects, there are very few people who have integrated yellow completely in every aspect. Well why are they more passionate? Because they fear that the government will try to push for mandatory vaccines, so they are anxious about the future. Almost no "anti-vaxxer" wants to prohibit people from taking the vaccine, they just don´t want to take it themselves. That´s why they stand up and don´t shut up. Pretty "logical" to me. Why would someone who just takes the vaccine be passionate about vaccines, if he only did so because of group-mentality and thinking it´s the ethical choice. They simply bought into that narrative, but (mostly) don´t understand anything about vaccines. People who just take the vaccine mostly don´t really inform themselves. At least here in Germany. I talked to a lot of my friends, who want to take the vaccine. They are unopen-minded, highly ideological and not able to discuss their point of view from a higher perspective. All I hear from them is moralizing how taking the vaccine is solidarity and our duty for humanity. Then they label me as lacking in solidarity, just because I have a different view on that topic. You know these "post-covid" symptoms aren´t anything new that came with COVID? There were always cases of people taking a long time to recover after being in intensive care. We just never had media broadcasting it 24/7 and linking it to a specific virus... The risk isn´t the same for everyone. You can´t just say it´s higher for everyone... In order to get a blood-clot from COVID, you first have to get COVID... Which some people simply won´t get. By taking the vaccine you always have the risk of getting blood-clots. You should really try and check what assumptions you are making without doing your own sensemaking.

Yeah, but it´s easy to understand why. Imagine believing the vaccine will kill and/or can control the minds of the people who get themselves vaccinated. And then also imagine people you love are doing it... Like even I would try everything to make someone I love stop doing stuff I think will hurt him, e.g. if my mother had cancer and she wants to do a chemo-therapy... I would try everything I can to make her change her mind on her own. The problem is, by being emotional, people tend to assume you did bad sensemaking, which isn´t necessarily the case. Sometimes it can even help to be emotional to reach certain people. Some people are just more emotional than others, that still doesn´t say anything about the information they have. Then there are scientists, who are almost without emotions, but that still doesn´t mean the science done had good epistemology. From my personal experience I concluded that I don´t need and want the vaccine. I have nothing against people who want the vaccine, let them do it if they feel the need to. But I don´t like anyone telling me what is best for me. The same way Leo says veganism isn´t for him. Who´s there to tell him that veganism is for him? It´s his choice, if he concluded that his body needs meat. The same goes for vaccines, who´s there to tell me that vaccines are good for me and my body (maybe my body works differently). As Leo said: Veganism doesn´t work for everyone. The same way that vaccines don´t work for everyone.

There aren´t any arguments unsaid anymore on both sides. It´s simply a question of understand both sides and where they come from (biases, values, principles). "Arguing that anti-maskers simply need more scientific literacy is to characterize their approach as uninformed and inexplicably extreme. This study shows the opposite: users in these communities are deeply invested in forms of critique and knowledge production that they recognize as markers of scientific expertise. If anything, anti-mask science has extended the traditional tools of data analysis by taking up the theoretical mantle of recent critical studies of visualization." From a study of the MIT - https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.07993.pdf

@Consept I personally think you are making a wrong assumption there. I don´t think yellow can´t be anti anything, yellow people can be "anti", but won´t be emotional and/or dogmatic about it. They simply see the world more clearly and are better at systems-thinking than the earlier stages. They can still see "wrong" in certain systems and the way the world works. Check out Daniel Schmachtenberger for example. He see´s the problems in the world, simply in a more "rational" and "scientific" way, yet he still has values and principles he follows. Also personally I think yellow people tend to be against mandatory vaccination, as they see the problems with that system and are also better at reading / evaluating studies and incorporating different perspectives. By being this fast with assumptions you are unable to understand it on a more nuanced level

This is so biased. I know a lot of people who are yellow and don´t want to take this particular vaccine, I even know some who are completely against vaccines as they use a different medical model, where it doesn´t make sense to vaccinate oneself. It all depends on the information you get, your sensemaking, and what you want to believe in. There´s also a lot of herd-mentality and virtue-signaling going on with taking the vaccine (people feeling moraly superior for taking the vaccine). What I learned in my time as an "evil" conspiracy-theorist is that there aren´t any believes that are specific to a certain stage. You can think Trump is super evil, while being green-yellowish, but there are also people saying trump would be the better choice between biden and trump, who are also green-yellowish. Maybe it´s time for you to move on? Or maybe instead of getting tired of it, try to really understand where they come from. At least that what friendship is about imo, trying to understand each other, growing together as people, having experiences that aren´t possible alone etc. etc. There is certainly compelling evidence out there to support certain theories, which are framed as "conspiracy-theory". I feel like a lot of people are taking the vaccine because of false-assumptions like: "The vaccine is the only way to end the pandemic", "COVID-19 is super dangerous" or "I want to live a normal life again". Listen to yourself when you have these assumptions. Where do they come from? Did I give my sensemaking away to some authority? Do I fear getting COVID? What are the odds of me surviving when I get COVID? How does this new technology work? Also try to understand why so many people aren´t taking the vaccine. Sure it´s easy to say they are all stupid conspiracy-theorist, right-wing, egoistic-people, but that´s just being to lazy to do sensemaking. "If there are whole chunks of populations that you only have pejorative strawman versions of, where you can't explain why they think what they think without making them dumb or bad, you should be dubious of your own modeling." - Daniel Schmachtenberger

So you say the answer is just sit by, watching the world turn into a technocracy? What if that's the opposite of my vision for humanity? And I am fighting for my own values? Is that wrong? Everyone is "fighting" for their own ideals in some way.

I agree on certain points. The problem is we don't have set values as a society, so it's kinda hard for a collective to decide what's "evil". And what should be punished. Here in Germany for example you get like up to 5 years in jail for not paying your taxes, while not even having to go to jail for sharing child-pornography. The problem is our society has toxic values, so untoxic values will get labeled as "evil". Like people fighting for "freedom" and more "self-responsibility" are evil in times of COVID-19. So who do give the authority to decide what's "evil"? Like murder isn't always murder... There are certain situations that murder can be justified and is justified in some countries. I think there are some truly "evil" people out there (of course that's my perspective), who should be punished for what they did. But is jail the right way? I don't see jail working, at least not here in Germany. The jail here is actually the best way to join criminal clans in Germany. And most people won't grow in jail, at least in it's current fashion.

(Most of) you talk about veganism as it's a concept that's the same for everyone. I'm 99% "vegan", since 2 years now and my health is so good now, totally unbelievable. I don't get sick, I never have any problems with my organs etc. For me it´s more about treating my body with consciousness, not eating finished products, buying at places (from companies) that don´t use pesticides (e.g. glyphosate, which can make your body stop or slow down the natural-detox of heavy metals it does), keep an eye of how much sugar you intake, not eating more than I need (2 times a day is enough, you even have more energy that way, as your body doesn´t need that much energy to deplete of all the unnecessary stuff that was too much), doing yoga and sports, taking supplements sometimes (B12 and D3 mostly) etc. etc. To the guys who tried vegan and it didn't work? How was your vegan diet? Vegan diets can be healthy, but a lot of vegan simply think it's enough to not eat meat, while still buying the cheapest vegetables and finished products, which are full of shitty chemicals and pesticides... Did you guys ever asked yourself the question why veganism didn't work for you? And actually doing the research what could be the trigger for the symptoms you describe? Maybe your vegan diet was to one-sided, too many cheap vegetables with pesticides (which can hurt the gut flora). Honestly you just need to check how most of the meat is made, to say no to it... How can you guys actually support that? And eat that? Or do you guys really buy the good meat all of the time? And I recall a news story of a baby of non-vegan parents dying despite being breastfed... You can´t simply say it´s because of factor X, without knowing the conditions, environment, experiences of said individual.

Well people have a electromagnetic-field... I can imagine a brainchip doing a lot of damage. Definitely wouldn't get one.

What are germs @Forestluv? How would you define them?

@Willie You are making many many assumptions there. One being that all those numbers are legit. That infectioisity can be measures by a PCR-test with 37-40 cycles and so on...

@Consept Yeah and I assume the numbers would be better if we didn´t have them. While simultaneously making a campaign for more self-care and healthy lifestyle... We come from two completely different paradigms. How do you explain countries like Belarus, Sweden or even states in America like Florida coming from that assumption? I would say if we didn´t have the PCR-Test from Dr. Drosten (there is actually a lawsuit going on against him for lying about the PCR-Test), we would have a completely different perspective on the pandemic. Look at Thailand for example, they use a more refined PCR-Test and their numbers are way lower, because it´s less susceptible to false diagnosis. But the PCR-Test isn´t a tool to diagnose a disease to begin with... Yeah we don´t need vaccines at all in my opinion. I have a completely different opinion about them as most people, as I don´t think the paradigm vaccines are based on is "correct". The thing is you can explain everything with different models. If we would actually let people live their lives without fear there would be way less sick people in my opinion. A friend just told me about a grandma, who stayed inside for 13 month because she was so anxious about going outside... The fear overtook her whole life. I don´t think a life lived in fear is really living. Again why not simply "defeat" things like hunger on the world, which we actually could with a lot less work and money than we put into making these so called "vaccines". Or actually research cancer, which we don´t do seriously because chemotherapy brings a lot of money into the medical-industry. I don´t think I can answer this question, everything is serious in a sense. Even COVID-19 is a serious problem, just not in the way it´s for most people from my perspective.

Well these numbers aren´t high for me. More people die from cancer, starvation and other things. Even alcohol kills more people every year. Personally I would rather have them prohibit alcohol again, but that would probably backfire as so many people are addicted to it. I am more addicted to my "freedom" Also as you said, these numbers are just deaths with a positive PCR-test. There sadly aren´t any valid numbers. Even if I check the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities) I can see only 6% of people died because of COVID-19, the other 94% had 4.0 additional conditions on average. Doesn´t look that dangerous to me. Especially since I studied how the PCR-Test works... (You can check what the inventor said about it, pretty interesting). In America you guys used 37-40 cycles on average... Which I honestly can´t believe. And now the vaccinated people will get testes with only up to 28 cycles which will make it look like vaccinated people have less COVID, simply because they reduced the CT-number. What you call long-covid I call slow regeneration (healing). My grandfather needed over 14 months to recover from a flu, when he still lived. Can happen with almost anything, not just with COVID. This just shows how bad our collective understand of Health is. We simply label anything as COVID now, maybe that´s also a reason why so many people don´t heal, because they forget to check what actually makes them sick? Also I wouldn´t consider any virus dangerous in general, what the public thinks about viruses isn´t my perspective on what a virus is. There are many different models on viruses not just the one that gets propagated in society. I don´t think people get sick because of viruses. But that´s not a popular opinion, people don´t like to look inside when it comes to what makes them sick, they like to have someone or something to blame.

@Consept A good reason for me would be a truly dangerous virus (which COVID-19 isn´t, at least for my age and health) and safer-vaccines (which aren´t safe enough for me). Also I would need more trust in the pharmaceutical-industry and some truly "independent" safety-studies for these new vaccines, which we don´t have. We have the EMA here in Europe, but the chairwoman worked for the pharmaceutical industry. There are two many "experts" telling to many different things. It´s just way to fucked up currently for me to trust in any of these narratives. So I will listen to what my gut tells me But of course I´m biased. I know more people indirectly who died from the vaccine, then from COVID-19. I know exactly 2 people in my whole circle of friends who has a positive test result (1 PCR-Test, 1 PoC-Test), one had weak symptoms, the other one did not have any. And this while not wearing a mask (I have a doctor´s note, because I get headaches and accelerated heart rate and feel sick when breathing through the mask), still meeting a lot of people (hugging, kissing, having sex with different people) and basically going on with my life the same way as before.

@Mannyb The only good reason I can see, for young healthy people, to get the vaccine is to get back their "freedom" (not absolute freedom). Things like going to restaurants (without testing), legally meeting multiple people, shopping, cinema, zoos and so on. Good that I am not that easy to blackmail. Here in Germany starting next week we will have an vaccine-apartheid... (I thought we were over the notion that a two-tier society is any good). The thing that is scary that most people are so full of fear (because of a virus with 99,9% recovery rate), that they are willing to accept that our basic-rights are just a privilege now. They don´t even notice the hypocrisy of saying that basic rights are now rights for vaccinated people. That´s why so many people here in Germany are getting the vaccine. The Mainstream-Media is doing a pretty good vaccination-campaign, downplaying all the dangers of these new vaccines (no long-term studies). People are so traumatized and anxious that they don´t see any other option but taking the shot. And it will probably help them simply because it will decrease they fear, as they will feel safer. And all this is based on a test that can´t even tell you that you are infectious or sick... Crazy times, but people can rationalize everything, as we can see pretty clearly on the forum. I will probably get called biased again and not looking at things holistically, but I am used to that now. Yes I am an anti-vaxxer, I don´t think my body needs any outside help to stay healthy. I´ve never been really sick since I started to live more consciously, why would I suddenly need a vaccine if I can stay healthy like this. Yes you can say "do it for society", but this is just virtue-signaling for most people. If people would truly care about other people we wouldn´t have lockdowns and mandatory mask wearing. No one would try to force anyone to do anything, they would instead invite you to learn new things. If the vaccine truly keeps you from getting COVID-19, why can´t people simply decide to take it? The ones who don´t want it aren´t endangering others. Why do vaccinated people still need to wear masks and keep distance? Obviously because they don´t keep you from getting COVID-19... There are just so many paradox statements on the official side (also corruption). Yeah I know every information has a bias, that´s why I didn´t choose to not take the vaccine on the basis of any outside information. It´s simply the fact that I don´t feel like taking it because I will probably get sick when taking it (fever, headaches and such things). Problems I don´t have when I don´t take the vaccine. Yes I may get sick some day again, but I believe my body can heal any damage without the help of medication Also according to official numbers (Germany) the COVID-19 mortality for 80+ people in some counties increased 4-20 fold (60 days after compared to 60 days before starting vaccinating). Yeah just a correlation, but a pretty interesting one. Also all-cause mortality in Israel increased a lot since they started vaccinating. Interesting correlations all over the place.

Hello, I am from Germany and I could tell you what my subjective experience is with politics here. Though I just really started really focusing on politics with their bad management when it comes to COVID-19. What I can say that it's pretty corrupt. Way more than it looks on the outside. For example Jens Spahn (Health Minister) did a lot of lobbying for the Pharmaceutical Industry before being our health minister. Quite shocking (for me) that he got into a position like this. You can pm me if you want my opinion, I don't think I can talk about it here in the forum without getting attacked.

@Consept https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13554 No I don´t the death rate is the only thing we should take into consideration. There´s a lot more stuff going on. Bad Testing, which increases the numbers, without actually having any use. People getting labeled as COVID-19 Case, but not actually having it. And then being wrongly treated. The Dogma of Asymptomatic Spread, which turned out to be untrue in my research. And so on. For Germany yes, it would have been fine. At least if we wouldn´t have closed over 20 hospitals in 2020. If you look at countries like Belarus, or Sweden you can also see that Lockdowns aren´t necessary. Sweden even has one of the lowest number of intensive beds in all of Europe. There may would have been. As there is almost every year in winter. Hospitals are always at 75%+ workload, because they get more money that way, and they have been privatized here in Germany. The whole medical-system sucks, even though Germany is a prime example, when it comes to Healthcare... Just shows how bad other countries have it.

@TheDao You should be expecting a backlash. Criticizing Biden is not really wanted here.

@Consept There certainly is truth to it. Climate Change is real. It´s just not known yet how much of a part our CO2-Emission (and a lot of other factors) actually play. At least that´s what I got out of my research. Same with COVID-19. Yes it can be dangerous. But for people below 70 the lethality is something around 0,05%. I think most people will agree on that. That´s why I don´t think all these measures are the right way to handle it. We should focus more on elderly people and actually help them have better environments. I live in munich, the mother of a friend is in the administration of retirement homes. She told me some crazy stuff. For example here in munich we have 2 retirement homes, where we had 0 COVID-19 cases till March 2021. Guess why that was? Because those were the retirement homes, where the people actually get treated well. All the other homes in munich suck she said and also have COVID-19 cases. The people get put into a room, get their food and get forgotten. Guess what that does to old people, who have Alzheimer for example? She also told me that since COVID-19 started a lot old people get depressed, because the nursing stuff doesn´t actually see them as subjects anymore. This basically means if we would focus on giving those old people a safe and healthy environment we would have way less deaths / COVID cases. But guess what? Most poeple don´t care about those people honestly, they just do it now to virtue-signal that they are so moraly superior. No I wouldn´t, at least not take if for certain. I know that my perspectives change over time and that I can always learn new stuff. There may would be a higher probability, yet that wouldn´t mean that view is absolutely truth. Just look at history, you can find many cases where people got stuck by believing they know everything about a topic.

@Consept Yeah I read almost all the studies that I find and interest me. I don´t believe consensus in science is something that happens naturally. Let´s look at the climate change study, where the guy said 97% of scientists agree that climate change is on the largest part man-made. When you actually check the study you will find that this is untrue. Just a bit of playing with numbers. Also when it comes to COVID-19, you have to keep in mind that Scientist are anxious to say what they want. They get banned, publicly vilified and sometimes even get their title taken away. So of course a lot of scientists will be quiet. When it comes to COVID-19 I actually feel that the majority of scientists is just echoing the mainstream media and not thinking for themselves, so I don´t listen to them. There are tons of scientists here in Germany who disagree with the current way we handle COVID-19. I think it only feels like the majority is agreeing on these measures because of crazy censorship and scientists being to anxious to speak out.

@Forestluv And you don´t actually see the problem with vaccine-passports? We can see pretty clearly in history what happens if we introduce a two-tier society.

@Consept Actually feels the same to me with Forestluv. I think my worldview is pretty holistic, but he will probably say the same. I try to see this in a broader context, by talking to people from different countries, listening to different experts. Checking out studies which aren´t shown in mainstream media and so on. I just don´t think vaccines are the answer to end this pandemic as Forestluv does. He can have that opinion that´s fine. I just have different opinion, based on my research and life experience.

Germany got almost turned into an dictatorship. They adopted a new law yesterday, in which they killed federalism. Our Basic-Rights will probably get turned into Privileges all on the basis of the incidence, which can get tuned up and down, depending on the number of tests. Yet they don´t take that into account. We have Lockdown, even though studies show that lockdowns do more harm than good. We had around 32 000 intensive beds last year in January, now we have around 24 000. And now they argue again that our intensive bed won´t be enough. Seems like they did that on purpose. Nursing stuff still gets threated like shit, same as in the last 20 years here in Germany. People are waiting like guinea-pigs in line to get the vaccine. As they think that this is the only way out. Experts who have a different opinion than what the official-narrative is get vilified as right-wing. Society is split and the media is still doing a good job to split it even further.

@Forestluv Well I don´t think we can have a discussion. You are doing the same thing again. I actually read studies and know they have limitations and some truth, but never all the truth. You seem to think pretty highly of yourself, I can see in your posting history. So I don´t think discussing stuff with you will lead to anything for me. You won´t even acknowledge the fact that masks don´t really work that well, and that even vaccinated people still get the virus. There were actually 15/18 people tested positive in a retirement home (where everyone has been vaccinated twice) not far from where I live. Some of them even died. But you make it seem as if the Anti-Vaxxers are the problem, and not the people who are pushing this vaccinate-everyone -is-the-only-way-for-this-pandemic to end. If the vaccine actually worked, all the people who are vaccinated wouldn´t even need to fear the people who don´t want to take the vaccine, because they simply don´t want to. Everyone has their own reasons. My step-mom just had a customer here today, who told me his father (66 year old) died one weak after getting his second AstraZeneca shot. He was healthy before. And guess what? They told him it wasn´t because of the vaccine, without doing any autopsy. If we would count vaccine deaths, the same way we count COVID-Deaths the number would be way higher. I didn´t say they aren´t good peer-reviews studies. All I said is that just because a study is peer-reviewed, doesn´t automatically mean the study is good. You read way to much into everything I write. Probably partly my fault, as I am not a native english speaker, yet I try my best. This is actual wisdom. Yet we still come to completely different conclusions, as I would say I take responsibility. Well we will probably see in a few decades who was right.