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Is it constructed to describe absolute truth or is there absolute truth in math? Are these maybe even the wrong questions?

You could say the land of America was discovered by the Vikings and Columbus bc it was already there and they just found it and figured out what it was they found. the land itself was created by various physical forces that similarly created the entire Earth. so there are some things that can be both discovered and created. Accounting is a branch of math that I would say was definitely developed for human use. But is there any element of math that exists independent of human experience? the number pi was discovered I would argue and the fundamentals of geometry. Number systems were developed for human use but numerical properties would exist in any possible universe or alien civilization I would think Where do geometry and numerical identities and pi and the Fibonacci sequence come from? I couldn't even alter the universe in such a way that I would change those but I could imagine a universe where the laws of physics were totally different Leo says math is as real as a dog turd but is a dog turd not real?

If math is discovered, at least in part, what is being discovered?

People, especially intellectual people, don't understand what he represents at a primal and emotional level - there are real and important reasons our democracy is under a lot of stress and trump truly is a festering symptom though i do think that it is worth considering Beck as potentially having suffered from dementia to make it a bit easier to respect his life's work rather than how he presented himself towards the end they all took so much from clare grave's without giving sufficient credit IMO but both beck and wilber have put out work that was very valuable to me so i am grateful due to changing domestic and geopolitical landscape, the GOP has swung from neoconservatism to paleoconservatism in the past 6 years which very few people seem to understand yet and the transition has been ugly

For whatever it's worth, and this might be wrong, I get the sense that he may have developed some form of dementia towards the end of his life which might explain his unusual behavior regarding certain things

Leo - have you ever thought about making your videos considerably shorter? By condensing the length, you increase signal to noise ratio even further although you obviously lose some information I've spent the last nearly 2 years straight simplifying my mental filters and constructs so that they are more resonant and parsimonious. Needed to reset my training data aggressively before I move on to the next stage in my life.

Don Beck is apparently doing some more work on stage coral with some guy Beecroft, with whom I'm not famliar. This seems to be much closer to the right track. They list stage coral as master chaos - Catalyzing whole system evolution, averting disasters and threats. Destabilise and destroy outdated and pathological ecosystems, creating newer, functional systems. High awareness, courage, and self-mastery. For the benefit of self and all. Minimize harm. https://spiraldynamics.net/

I've never experimented with LSD, but I heard the story of when Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) traveled to India and met his guru in a village, Neem Karoli Baba, he gave him a fairly large dose to see if he could tell him what it was. Ram Dass claimed that even though he took a large dose, he was not even noticeably affected by it. He was supposed a deeply enlightened guru but I always found it intriguing that he supposedly wasn't impacted. Anybody got any thoughts on that?

Terrorism is usually a term reserved for minority groups as it's a military tactic used by those without power to instill fear in those who do. Generally, something like this is referred to as a hate crime, when somebody uses their power or privilege to persecute a group that is more vulnerable than them in society. I'm not defending it, just explaining the dynamic that is likely at play and why people see it a certain way.

I've been thinking abt this a little bit and you would need to install an entirely new form of government that would succeed our current form of democracy. Depending on how things go in the United States in the next couple of decades, this type of thing is possible but would require people to get together to do it. I don't think it would be autocratic in nature, but it would involve a very different power structure that would not depend on the people using a voting mechanism to elect their representatives because that isn't working so well. The original federal government was set up in the 18th century by a bunch of founders who were relatively very enlightened for their time. But the institutions weren't built to be sufficiently flexible and they're breaking down now. In Spiral Dynamics terms, what would a government look like if it were run by people who were of stage turquoise consciousness yet prepared to serve the first-tier survival needs of their people. Our current government was set up by largely deistic rationalists (stage orange) but is being overtaken by reds and radical greens. We need to install new balancing mechanisms.

In my life, I've found that my arrogance gets checked when (A) I experience failure and have to re-evaluate how good I am at something (B) My arrogance is getting in the way of something else I care about more. For example, if I really valued my friendship with certain people but they were annoyed with me because of my selfish attitude, I would consciously decide that I cared more about the strength of the friendship and deprioritize my instinct to be selfish or narcissistic or arrogant or whatever. I'm not sure it is so easy to stop being XYZ just because you think it is an undesirable trait. If you are a narcissist and don't have any real trade off, you'll prob continue being narcissistic. But what has happened to me is I'll go on an ego trip so far that it becomes self-destructive and then I'll defer my own ego needs to satisfy those of others (thus benefitting me even more indirectly).

Following up on my post above. This guy has a big ego on his, I think which disappears when you truly get to the yellow stage. He's projecting his values for success and domination and cunning onto what he sees as coral. There are parts of him that are much lower and you supposedly can't see more than a level or two beyond where you are so he's missing a lot of what it means to be on the second tier. That being said, this guy is a systems consultant, and has such a sophisticated view of systems thinking that this piece of him understands holistic thinking and may be truly at turquoise or even coral. I only have a rough idea what that would look like but you start to incorporate more and more dimensions of systems thinking as you progress along the spiral. I am most interesting in what he has to say on that aspects vs. cunning and conspiracy theories and dominance of the masses etc.

I'm listening to this interview now and he's got a ton of orange in him. He claims to have attached temporary enlightenment but he's obsessed with trying to get to the top of the (infinite?) spiral. He speaks really fast, mentioned he has a "resume" of skills, works as a consultant. He has to overcome or let go of that desire to get validation through achievements before he progresses. Clare Graves seem to imply that ambition and compulsion are basically gone once you get to the seventh level (yellow) which is where he was at the time of the documentary. Carrano's sense of elitism and desire for self improvement is very reflected in orange. For some reason I get annoyed when I find people who inflate their abilities, insight, whatever. It's natural part of humanity but at the same time its frustrating bc it makes it harder to find the information I need.

I don't know if this is weird, but I don't want to judge him as it takes too much emotional energy. There are people who do good things in this world and there are people who do bad things. I don't want to judge anybody unless I absolutely have to. I don't have to lionize him as a person, to appreciate some of the work that he's done (if it's any good) or take sides on an issue I'm not interested in researching. From a practical/political standpoint, it's prob smart to keep quiet about a controversial person until the controversy is somehow resolved. Does this sound weird? I've very recently been aggressively shedding my desire to want to judge people and hold political or social opinions, unless it directly impacts me. It's not that I want people to harm others or be toxic, I just want to stay out of it for my own well being. I just watched the video again and I feel that he's not being authentic which makes him feel a bit creepy to me. I guess I care abt finding authentic ppl now.

This thread is pretty misogynistic and seems to portray women as sexual objects. Suit yourself if that's what your looking for but I don't think tricking women is the right approach if you're looking for real human connection.

I think you seem to be very intellectually in yellow but have some lower unmet needs. It seems like you want to work for a prestigious company and achieve worldly success, have more basic financial needs, and higher moral needs that make you feel uncomfortable for working for your prestigious company. Your health is suffering, I've been in that situation which is why I ended my career in finance this year. I was living out of alignment with my needs and values and the conflicting forces were causing a lot of stress. And it put so much stress on my nervous system that I got monstrously sick with a COVID infection last March from which I have not yet fully recovered. When you have many competing interests pulling at you, it's going to cause real problems for you stress-wise unless you very consciously rank your preferences so you aren't compromises parts of you without realizing it. It's seems like you're intellectually in yellow, probably a hyper intellectual person esp if you work in IT, but have orange financial and emotional (success oriented) needs, with green moral needs that make you feel guilty about working for a largely amoral big company. Figure out your most basic and most significant needs and work your way up from there to reprioritize how you want to live your life. It's super unpleasant to not be fully integrated, esp if you're intellectually much higher than other needs, but impt to figure out where you are in what ways. If you need money badly, you may want to compromise some of your higher moral principles, but you don't have to do anything immoral yourself.

I am not terribly familiar with him and I haven't seen his criticisms but this reminds me of like a southern megachurch pastor. If you see him in that way and less of a guru it makes much me less uncomfortable with this video. I'm not sure if he temporarily revived this guy or it had long lasting effects. Perhaps it gave him a little bit of hope, which is what Trump offers to many people. My feeling is that he helps a bunch of people but then there are people like this guy that prob temporarily snap out of it and go back to being depressed. IDK though.

I think this is exactly right. By being a public guru, it's because you want acknowledgement or you want to use a platform to do something, and that involves some kind of ego craving so they can't be pure. I was following Sadhguru on Twitter for a bit because people seems to speak so highly of him and I wanted to better understand what he was about. Even he has sexist beliefs about how men/women should be and he's emotionally attached to his temples and leadership position. These 'flaws' drive him to place himself in the limelight but he still may have some useful things to offer. I want to find a pure mystic, saint, sage etc at some point in my upcoming travels. I'll have to do some research (if that's even possible) to see where I can find these people that aren't public figures.

I agree with this. I'm not opposed to hearing other people's views, but I prefer for them more to be analytical and aspiring to be objective rather than XYZ's subjective value system imposed onto the problem. I like to understand the system dynamics and see how they're playing out, but just to understand and not form a judgment unless I'm in a position to make a change or influence something. I am honestly very careful about how I influence friends these days. If they're dealing with really deep personal issues, I try to just lay out the pros-cons of each decision to help them make a better decision for themselves. I don't feel comfortable offering my opinion, unless specifically asked, bc I may be responsible for having a large impact on their lives and I am not that confident it will be positive or negative. I didn't sign up for that.

I think this is exactly right. I didn't go from green to yellow exactly, my life trajectory has been in many different places at once for a variety of reasons, but I now see social justice people as having an emerging awareness and upset abt the inherent unfairness of life but they have not yet developed the skills to deal with it or an understanding of why human life in any kind of hierarchies will be inherently oppressive. I think I'm solidly in yellow with a few resentments abt some wounds but I don't really want to work on projects myself so I'd like to find like-minded people to collaborate with on big issues. I could do these things myself but I'd be much more effective with others to pool and share skill sets. Still I def don't feel like I have that deeply mystical turquoise worldview I've seen in a bunch of videos, nor do I necessarily aspire to that for now.

Wouldn't you think that people wouldn't even be interested in discussing/debating politics on here or is that because its a first tier thing? Totally fine if that's what it is, just trying to navigate my way around this forum to see what it offers. I don't think I was terribly interested in any of this stuff until very recently when a terrible health crisis pushed me to yellow (I think). FWIW, even though I am Jewish, these are all just subjective opinions. You could all be neo-Nazis that want me to be killed but I wouldn't see much point in trying to reason with that unless there's an opportunity to discuss in a truly open situation. I'm focused on trying to analyze the political landscape to see how and when it will affect me and defer any judgments until I'm in a position to influence or change something or it directly affects my well being (through myself or others).

I'm totally new to this community and his videos as of yesterday. But how he may respond to claims that he is delusional would be revealing... lol. So far all I see if some guy who has some put in a lot of work to make some videos and a forum online. He not only encourages but pushes the audience to think abt things for themselves. I have not seen any way in which he manipulates his members or audiences into staying with his community or giving him some kind of significant sum of money for deeper access to something. Haven't see any yellow flags yet.