something_else

What logic have you used to convince yourself that the market works in the way you believe it does?

How do you know that's how the market works? Maybe you're right, I'm just asking what your reasons in particular are for believing it works that way.

How's it a strawman? It's exactly what you said. You said that because that's how it was 30k years ago, that's how it is today. I gave you an example of how that logic is dumb Yes if you have looks and status then dating is easier. That's like saying because someone else was born a millionaire you shouldn't try to earn any money. But in the same way as the millionaire can lose all his money by being dumb and reckless, someone with looks and status can still seriously drive away girls by being unhygienic, disgusting or very poorly dressed. And you can improve your impression by being well dressed, stylish and hygienic. Some guys can literally go from a 4 to an 8 in the looks department with the right style and hygiene But style is also about conveying personality and expressing yourself which is a big part of attraction

By this logic if you want to attract women you should do it like a caveman, naked, smelly and fully unshaved and unshowered for your entire life. Best of luck to you with that

Oh, and this is your most important insight. Like @Leo Gura said you need to stop consuming this shit and now you know why

First of all congrats man!!! Now tell your mind to shut the fuck up. It's moving the goal posts. You set yourself the goal of going out. Against all the odds, feeling like complete shit, you pushed through that and went out anyway. And you had a great time. Your story is essentially identical to mine, I don't know if you read my thread or not. Like the similarity is uncanny. Now notice your mind is trying to play down this accomplishment?? Why? Who gives a shit if you drank alcohol, what you did was still extremely challenging for you to do in the first place but you pushed through. Now be consistent, go again next week. Your mind will generate the same BS and you will push through again. Alcohol or no alcohol. Should you try to reduce the alcohol consumption over time as you get more tolerant of the club environment? Yes. Is drinking at the start to match everyone else's energy, relax, and fit in a little better wrong? Not at all. And you should also try to make some clubbing friends too. But now you know you don't need them.

I really do wish you the best. PM me if you ever want to talk about anything

Notice that I'm pretty much just asking you to explain your feelings and opinions to me. I'm not respecting or disrespecting, I'm just asking Reread my last 4 messages again. All I have done is ask you "how do you know for sure that nothing in the entire world excites you" and you've found 4+ ways of dodging answering that specific question directly and now you're accusing me of trying to be a smartass with you I made an observation that you are assuming everything in the world is garbage, I'm sure that seems like total, complete, utter, reality in your mind and I have total compassion for whatever shit you've been through on your life that's caused you to feel that way. Life can be absolutely fucking brutal I'm just asking this question repeatedly to you in the hopes that it may open up your mind to the possibility that there could be something you have never seen or experienced in the world before for which you feel a deep passion, or even just mild excitement. Until you have deeply explored what the world has to offer, you can't know whether such a thing exists or not. And wouldn't you rather take a chance and find out? It's difficult to know whether to be compassionate or hard with someone, I might have been a bit on the hard side and I'm sorry for that. I hope you can grasp or at least be open the point I'm trying to make to you though

Sure this sounds like a real zinger, but it doesn't answer the question I asked you. I asked how do you know that no travel, food or activities in the entire world excite you? How have you come to the conclusion that all of these things are a poop sausage in your mind?

How do you know you don't like them?

How do you know none of these things excite you if you've never tried them. You're telling me you've been to every city in the world, tried every food, built up skill in every activity and none of it excited you?

How do you know? Have you tried everything else there is to try in the entire universe? Having other things to do in life besides women is basically a requirement to start attracting women... Even if all you can think about is women, force yourself to start doing other things, new things. Your mind will tell you none of it is worthwhile but your mind is full of shit

"Nothing I've ever done excites me" "How much have you done" "Yawn" Dude, you have literally experienced less than half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a half of a percent of what the world has to offer and you've concluded that nothing could possibly excite you. You must see how silly that is I don't know if compassion or hardness is what you need, probably some of both. My honest impression is just that you need to get out of your head and try as many new things as you possibly can But what do I know, I don't know you

Out of curiosity, what motivates you to keep posting on this forum? I'm not suggesting you stop, I'm just curious what your internal experience of that is And I know nothing about you, but it seems like you hate everyone. I would start trying to unwire that. People are awful, selfish, stupid, and entirely focused on their own lives, yes. But why does that deserve hatred? That's the natural way for humans to be, and anything else requires a lot of work on the part of the human. Most people by default will have some positive traits mixed in with all that junk. It's a bit of a trope/cliche, but the critical flaws in humans are what make their few positive traits so admirable. Having said all of this, I think wishy washy ideas, spirituality etc. are not what you need. It doesn't sound like relationships are what you need either. It sounds like you need to explore the world. Perhaps even literally. You need to find things that excite you. Are you really so sure nothing can excite you? How much of the world have you really seen and experienced? Travel, go to weird countries, do weird things, try weird food, do activities you've never done before. Do things that spike your adrenaline. Explore. Feel the freedom of life. Be impulsive. Experience. Drop your expectations. Take action without thinking too much. That's how you cure the feeling of being trapped.

Whatever you do, have some item of clothing or appearance that makes you stand out. Especially where I stay, at least 60% of guys on a night out wear a polo shirt, slim fit jeans and have an identical short back and sides haircut. There was a crowd of dudes outside my window, at least 10 of them, on Friday and you literally could not distinguish between any of them in a lineup. They all looked identical. Don't be like that. The style is attractive but every guy does it so suddenly you're not memorable at all. The challenge is standing out without it being in a weird or unattractive way

Here's a very relevant story of mine from a few weeks back, have a read. I felt exactly like you felt and ended up having a blast of a night. If you go out alone I think you're always going to need to deal with your mind coming up with emotional shit like that Drinking some alcohol can help relax the shitty thoughts. It also helps if the place is really busy because no one knows you're alone by sight, and if you feel stressed you can just blend into the crowd. If someone asks who you're there with just say you're new to the town and you just wanna have a fun night. Ideally you won't even need that because you're right, non-verbal communication is key on the dance floor, it's a good skill to work on In my experience, if you go alone, the mindset you want is "let's fucking do it and see what the fuck happens". Clubs are chaotic, literally anything can happen. Try to get your mind to tap into the adrenaline and excitement of that prospect Tell yourself that anything else that your mind generates other than "fuck it let's see what happens" is an expectation and should be ignored as much as reasonably possible

Are you sure she wasn't being ironic? that phrase is pretty much universally used jokingly now

Yes, I thought so, was just confirming

It's kinda simple, you're free to wait as long as you want but if that's longer than the guy is willing to wait then you must accept his feelings on the matter, and he must accept yours Either you come to some middle ground or you part ways, neither side is right or shameful. Do whatever you want, but accept that by waiting longer you may repel some great guys who just happen to want sex sooner than you. Same goes for them, they miss out on great girls who just need a little more time If I remember correctly the main point of the other thread was more that expecting commitment before sex is problematic. Because a guy can't know if he wants to commit before sex, so it's unfair of the girl to expect that. If you're expecting commitment from guys first as opposed to just an emotional connection then I would argue you could be being a bit selfish and needy. But I don't think that's what you mean here anyway, correct me if I'm wrong

For what it's worth, the amount of action I'm able to take at the moment is going to a club every Saturday with the aid of alcohol, occasionally a Friday as well. I'm experimenting with going out to bars weekdays too, but that's incredibly hard for me. Starting with small steps like going in, buying a drink, then leaving. Like @flowboy said, taking action is hard. Reward yourself for small steps in the right direction. As long as you're doing something, anything, that's emotionally challenging, then you're moving in the right direction. Even if it's a tiny step. My own personal opinion is that viewing things through the lense of pickup is a bad idea. This is unverified and take from it what you will.

Oh man, this is a recipe for disaster. Especially given the post that follows it. You're on the knives edge of toxicity, tread carefully I'd stop consuming redpill shit and just focus on socialising with girls. Maybe look at some of the healthier pickup/socialisation theory if you need it This is a game of action, not theory. The theory is supplemental and secondary

Meh, I guess. I don't really know your situation, just don't get bogged down in theory vs action. Going out and socialising with those girls as much as possible is worth a thousand theories and systems.

Why do you feel like you need a system to follow?

@charlie cho @Karmadhi Yea, one of the biggest things I've had to deal with mentally is my mind telling me "oh this just isn't you, you're not a sociable person." Be especially careful what beliefs you have about what kind of person you are, they can be quite limiting. I wouldn't consider myself loud or energetic either @Karmadhi but I do notice that when I'm having a good time I'm far more free flowing, loose and high energy than I would normally be. But that high energy would be awful in day to day life. It has a time and a place.

I made a thread last week about a shitty experience I had in a club where I ended up getting thrown out and just generally having a really bad night. I realised that may have been discouraging to anyone else who is starting to socialise a bit more via clubs or just going out in general so I figured I'd make another thread about a much better experience I had this week with some insights. This is long, and almost more of a journal entry so perhaps it'd be better suited to that section. I'm really just summarising my experience for myself and if it happens to be useful/helpful to anyone else that's great. In short, this is only my 3rd time in a club and I've already had some great times. And I'm someone who has been socially deficient since I was 12. Choice of club I know nothing about clubs, to be honest. There are three in my town, I chose the closest one to me last week and apparently I chose wrong. I ended up getting thrown out of it as I mentioned but I care even less now because it was absolutely terrible in comparison to the place I went to this week. It had far more people, and they were much more reliably in my age range (it was mainly 18-25 year olds there, and one 41 year old Greek God of a male specimen which I'll get to later ) Drinking I should make it clear that I do drink. I know most often the advice if you're doing pickup or whatever is not to drink alcohol but frankly I'm not approaching this as pickup or as using any kind of system, I'm reading almost no theory on anything. I'm just going out, having fun and seeing what happens. I can see how structure would be helpful so I have nothing against it, it just doesn't feel like the right approach for me. Maybe that will change. Start of the night I really really didn't want to go out at the start of the night (around 10ish), like my mind was generating literally every excuse possible to make me sit at home instead of going out. One of the most powerful excuses was "well you feel like shit and you're anxious so you definitely won't have a good night, go another night instead". I ended up telling myself I was just going to go for a walk around the busy town areas and talk to some people instead of facing the full intensity of a club. But I'm so so glad I went out. That voice generating excuses not to do difficult things in your head is a total bastard lol. Literally the second I started talking to some people (a group of girls and a guy) all the weird negative shit in my mind just vanished and I ended up going to the club with them. I've noticed that I'm absolutely fine talking to groups and I can be super confident in a group dynamic when I'm the new person in the group and all the attention is on me. It feels like a performance and I can come across as interesting and engaging. It helps that people here are usually very friendly and inclusive. But when we got to just outside the club they started talking to some other people they knew and suddenly I didn't know what to say and I just kind of clammed up. I've had similar experiences before. I don't know why this happens, probably just lack of social experience. I think it's also my mind freaking out that I need to do something to keep their attention but at the same time not knowing what to do exactly. Anyway, one of the girls was showing clear signs of attraction (the most attractive girl as far as I can remember that has ever shown clear interest in me) until we got to the club and I went quiet and awkward like I mentioned. I went in with her and her friend but I could clearly tell she was awkward around me now so I went in and just left them. Oh well. It still made me feel good. Rest of the night Most of the rest of the night was just dancing, I made out with 3 girls on the dance floor, one of them literally grabbed me and started kissing me out of nowhere, turns out she was trying to make a 41 year old dude she was crazy about jealous cos he wasn't showing her any interest He was legit the most objectively attractive male specimen I've ever seen which made it even funnier. I ended up speaking to him later, really chill dude, and he told me she was absolutely nuts and he wasn't into girls half his age anyway. Another girl was not that attractive to me but I kept running into her so I figured why not, let's dance and see what happens. Got her snapchat, if nothing else she seemed kinda chill so might make a good friend since I'm in a new town and want to build up a bit of a social network anyway. The last girl was really short, like 5ft tall which is super attractive to me. I can't remember if she came up to me or if I came up to her on the dance floor, but we were doing all sorts, more than just kissing, hands all over each other. This was my first proper experience of sexy dancing and making out with someone I met on a night out, man it's so fucking hot. I whispered (well, shouted but that sounds like a whisper in a club lol) in her ear that I live a couple streets away and pulled her by her hand off the dance floor, she still seemed super into it, then she said she was gonna go tell her friends where she was going. I figured, that's fair enough, so I waited. I gave it like 30 seconds and then realised she might have just bailed. I probably should have given it longer but part of me didn't really believe it was actually gonna happen so I thought she'd just left. I still don't actually know whether she would've come back or not, I regret not waiting a bit longer. Rejections I went back to dancing and I don't really think much more interesting happened after that. I danced with a few girls who ended up having a BF (these were polite rejections usually) and got absolutely tons of less polite rejections. The nonverbal ones where you get looks of disgust and contempt after just making eye contact or signalling you wanna dance are the worst, but I'm used to it now and the few times where I wasn't rejected just helped me start to laugh at the more rude rejections Conclusions I am not a sociable person. I have probably got some form of social anxiety although I'm not diagnosed or anything. But in just 3 trips to a club I'm starting to actually open up, have fun, attract girls in ways I wouldn't have imagined doing in the past. I find clubs even easier than bars to socialise because you can just vanish into the crowd if need be, compared to a bar where if you're not talking to someone you're kind of sitting awkwardly on your own. Yes, the alcohol helps and I don't want to turn it into too much of a crutch. But I don't really see the problem with having a few drinks to match everyone else's energy. And it helps with dancing, which is not something that comes naturally to my sober self lol. My overall point is that you might not necessarily need to do thousands of pickup approaches or tons of work to start having great and fun social experiences. Especially if you're young, in like the college/university age range like me, just start going out to busy places and see what happens.