something_else

The original point we were discussing was impact on the world. It is possible to have impact on the world without a public brand and without having a top tier ability to communicate in person, under pressure. You specifically mentioned a kind of communication under pressure that involves public speaking. Some of the jobs I listed require good communication, but not the specific kind you were arguing is a necessity for impact on the world. Everyone’s version of an exceptional life is different. For some people the most exceptional life is taking a vow of silence and becoming a monk.

The goalposts are jumping all over the place here. The main points I was critiquing were that A) everybody must be able to communicate confidently under extreme pressure to succeed and B) that everybody should create a public persona You’re not wrong that results and real world impact are important, but you can create both of those things without A and B above. Think scientist, engineer, novelist, craftsman, parent, academic, philanthropist, doctor, nurse, farmer, historian, etc. can produce enormous real-world value without cultivating a public identity, being able to pitch to a room of investors, or debating someone publicly. Yes, those skills are valuable, even in some of these careers. But plenty of people have had a huge impact on the world without them.

You’ve found a path that works for you, that doesn’t mean everyone else needs to or wants to go down the same path as you. There are many ways to live life meaningfully.

I don’t know or care who I think is correct between you two, but someone’s willingness to debate live and publicly has little to do with how correct they are. Plenty of excellent debaters are idiots and some of the smartest people on earth are terrible debaters. On top of this, you have an advantage here because your identity is already fairly public. Not everybody wants their face or persona publicly out on the internet, for a variety of excellent reasons that don’t include being too scared to debate you. Also, yes, typing is cheap and talking on a call is an order of magnitude more effort. Most people don’t care enough to actually commit to that for a silly internet debate. So yes, making this offer makes you look strong and confident, to a degree, which is I suspect why you went down this route. But rejecting the offer does not inherently mean someone else “lost” or is wrong

If you want to use ChatGPT to analyse a thread, make sure you use an Unpersonalised Temporary chat, otherwise it knows who you are and always tells you that you’re right.

That's fair, I did concede that point earlier in the thread. I got carried away arguing against it because some of the dudes here were talking about shit tests like they were this specific distinct phenomenon that you must learn about and that if you don't you'll always fail. Personally I have never really given this concept much thought at all and I've done just fine. Generally my policy has been: playful teasing / banter > tease / banter back, soft insult > laugh and ignore, hard insult > laugh and walk away, rejection > wish them a good night and walk away. To me this came very naturally without any kind of concept like "shit test" because... this is just how you talk to people. And I was not naturally sociable. I had extremely poor social skills until my early twenties. Even when I was "doing pickup" regularly I rarely consumed any theory because I just found it extremely cringy and it made me feel like I was learning tricks to get laid. It just made me feel like a loser. I always had this thought "does a girl want a pickup artist, or a well rounded, social guy?" and the answer is quite clearly the latter. If you tell a girl you practice pickup she'll dry up like the Sahara desert 9 times out of 10. I always framed it as learning to overcome social anxiety, build a social circle, learning to connect, learning to flirt etc. in ways that worked naturally for me. I think that getting lost in pickup theory is... not a good thing. Pickup theory is like the stabilisers on your bike, good for learning the basics, but beyond a certain point I think it hinders you more than it helps. It can warp your ability to socialise naturally because you're constantly analysing the interaction and trying to fit it into some concept or script, instead of just being present with the person. Even if the script becomes automatic and sub-conscious, you're still limited by it.

I think this is a good explanation. I'm still not sure it convinces me that the concept of a 'shit test' is a useful one though. Most of the time the expression of this is just playful banter, or observing people's behaviour for status cues. If someone tries to playfully tease or banter with you and you collapse and get defensive then yea, that loses you a lot of respect and makes you look pretty unattractive. And I agree we're constantly searching for status cues in others, if you give off low status cues then you won't be respected as much. But I don't think that a shit test is a useful term for either of these. They're both just normal human behaviour that you kind of intuitively get a feel for if you talk to lots of people. A shit test implies some active nefarious testing, and I don't think that happens all that often. And like I said earlier, I don't really want to deal with a girl who's actively testing me anyway. I'd rather go chat to the majority of girls who don't do that.

I think you’re mistaking me for @LordFall. Are you… sober?

Oh yea totally agree. I was taking more generally on that point, rather than giving advice directed at him.

I literally said nothing about a cafe, so either you misread or you misquoted.

What the fuck are you even talking about dude? I think you meant to quote someone else I feel like I’m witnessing someone have a mental breakdown in real time. Go see a therapist

Wow, what a dick measuring contest lmao The stereotype is that if a guy has to brag about how many girls he’s fucked, he’s either got a small dick or he’s deathly insecure deep down I’ll leave it at that

I’ve honestly been surprised how willing girls are to come straight over from Tinder. I used to assume that was almost always off the table for most girls, which to be honest it probably should be, so I never even tried. But having made the offer quite a few times in the past year out of curiosity, it seems a decent amount of girls are down for it. I think a profile that conveys a nice balance of safety and hotness works well. It’s not a great overall strategy though because most of the time if they aren’t down for that it then it kills the chat stone dead afterwards. You can kind of sense whether a girl is into it or not. I live relatively close to a lot of bars so the second option you mentioned is generally my go to, and yea, living near bars / clubs is amazing for dating in general but it also makes tinder dating much easier. I live across the street from a relatively nice bar which is fantastic for dates.

I mean, aside from the sweet home Alabama here, what you’re describing is just polyamory. It’s not a new concept

Yea, I can’t find my eye bleach after reading this

Wtf?

I agree. I think it has some narrow scope of value for people who have really underdeveloped social skills and need a step-by-step instruction booklet on how to flirt or banter. Beyond that it seems really bizarre and unhelpful to me. Again, I also come from a country where giving people shit is how you make friends most of the time, so maybe that contributes to my opinion on this being a dumb concept.

See I would interpret both of these as playful teasing or a direct insult entirely depending on her energy, and act based on that. If it’s playful teasing I’ll roll with the punches, if it’s a direct insult then I would just laugh and walk away. The concept of a shit test is meaningless precisely because if it is a real concept and a girl uses one, I don’t want to continue the conversation anyway. My time is better spent elsewhere with girls like 95% of girls I’ve hooked up with or dated in my life, who didn’t do this.

How do you distinguish between: an insult or rejection flirty teasing a "shit test" Conceptually I get it: teasing is "I'm playing with you," rejection is "fuck off" and a shit test is supposedly "I'm interested, but I want to see how you react." But how do you actually identify the third one? The same comment could fit all three depending on what you assume her intention is. People obviously probe each other's confidence and reactions sometimes, but I'm not convinced "shit test" is a useful category if you can't reliably distinguish it from flirty teasing, genuine criticism and rejection.

I've never really experienced this. I've had women tease, banter with or criticise me playfully, but if someone was genuinely harsh or insulting, it was usually because she wasn't interested. Maybe this is because I come from a country where giving people shit is standard part of a conversation, and is a common way to make friends. Everybody rolls with the punches here. I think "shit tests" are mostly a useful mental model for socially inexperienced guys to navigate the flirty teasing women do without getting defensive. Eventually you take the training wheels off and just read the interaction for what it is. And with your stricter definition, I'm even less convinced they're a distinct phenomenon. If we exclude playfulness, how do you distinguish a "shit test" from genuine criticism, rudeness or rejection? If you can't, you're potentially teaching guys to interpret "fuck off" as a test they're supposed to pass because actually "'fuck off' is a shit test and really, deep down she actually likes you". Which is a bit rapey, and not something we should be teaching guys. My approach to dating or chatting to girls has always just been to talk to them like human beings, be playful, be flirty, and politely accept rejection if it happens. I know deep down that if one girl doesn't like me it isn't a reflection on me as a whole and another girl will. This approach has worked well for me so far.

Again, you are agreeing with me. I don't think shit tests aren't real per se, I would just not use the pickup terminology for them because it comes with a lot of baggage. It tells you "even if she gives you signs she doesn't like you, push through, it really means she does like you". Which is stupid, girls who like you will make it clear. They'll playfully tease you, but you don't need a fancy pickup term for that, and it's almost always playful, not rude or disrespectful.

Exactly. This summarises my thoughts and experience perfectly.

I think you explained yourself pretty well tbh, but you're welcome either way For me it was the same at first, I was quite a weird and socially awkward child who was bullied a lot. Lots of trauma from that. Pure pickup helped a bit, but learning how to party, have fun, make like-minded friends, and express myself authentically was better for the kind of healing I needed. It helped my mind realise that there was nothing fundamentally wrong with me like I believed as a kid. Pickup felt like a bandaid on the symptoms rather than a solution to the root cause of the problem. The healing from that made it much easier to date successfully.

I did a fair amount of pure pickup in the past. I still do to an extent, but a more holistic version of it. I’m a holistic man-whore now, through and through The holistic approach of building a solid well-rounded life has worked much better for dating than a ton of cold approach or true pickup ever did.

The big price is paid when you build your entire identity around it, and the price is that it heavily taints your view of all interpersonal dynamics. You're viewing everything social through the pickup lens even if it isn't the appropriate lens. That then gives rise to the issues @Valach listed above. You also end up building your entire self-worth on how many girls you can sleep with, which is not ideal. It's also a huge time sink. Success with cold approach requires a lot of consistency and dedication to get results, but the skillset you are building from that dedication is quite ephemeral. It atrophies quickly, like a muscle. So you end up spending 2+ years of your life doing cold approach, you stop for a few months, then you have little left to show for it. That is a heavy price. If you build things that last, like friendships, lifestyles, social groups, real skills, careers, businesses, hobbies etc. you build something much stronger and longer lasting than what you get from years of cold approach under the pickup framework. And all of those things together put you in a much better position to date than the skillset of approaching women on your local high street will. It's worth doing pickup a bit, just to push yourself and build up some superficial charm, take the parts of the system that are valuable. It will get you laid. But beyond a certain point I think you get very diminishing returns for the amount of effort involved.