zazen

You can experience a projection of nature, not nature itself which has a more visceral connection in ways we don't even know of.

Why is it that most of the Jewish youth of America don't agree with the Israeli states actions and have actually been the most vocal about it in protest? This suggests their is a difference in mentality. Unless you refer to the settlers who come from America and feel entitled to take Palestinians homes like the famous Jacob from Brooklyn who said 'If i don't steal it someone else will' - those guys are similar to Israeli mentality of the far right. It wasn't meant to be thorough take. But since you think you know better whats going on in Netenyahu's head maybe elaborate on it. If its as simple as 'he's trying to defeat Hamas absolutely and get rid of them' then that's nothing new. The question is, how realistic is that, what will be the consequences of that (suffering of many more Palestinians) and can Israel afford more bad press world wide and war crimes being live streamed boastfully by the IDF to be further embarrassed by the ICJ case which I'm sure is noting all of it and will display it on their follow up.

@BlueOak @bebotalk Sometimes, the substance of the message isn't the issue but the style of it is - and if that style is bad faith, dismissive and mocking that stains the message. Blueoaks description on the hollowing out of the middle class is spot on - and how the beast of corporatism has grown to devour its own people in the region from which it grew out of - the capitalist West. While the tide of capitalism may have lifted many boats in its ascent, it is now drowning many in its later stages. It reduces members of society to numbers on a screen - the separation of state and religion removes the moral dimension from state power and hands it over to the private sector of corporatism which lacks morality. Corporatism is amoral, anational - it's interest is solely in the material and multi-national and serves the board rooms push for profits over the citizens working as a cog in the machine who struggle to sleep peacefully at night knowing they have a sense of security - financially, socially, politically, Bebo mentioning how the past was worse than the present is partially true in that whilst things have progressed in certain decades (which Blueoak provided the nuance for - 40-90's) they have devolved in others ways and times. The boomer generation often looks at the younger generations and says 'your life isn't even tough' but both generations can have it rough without invalidating the others suffering. One's suffering (the older generations) may be more physical, while the others is more psychological (younger gen) - but as we know the body and mind aren't two islands and psychological dis-ease spills over into the physical. The younger generation of today feel disillusioned, un-anchored, atomised, over stimulated and flooded with information they lack the wisdom to parse through, and distrustful of all the institutions their parents relied on for a sense of stability to make sense of reality. Their parents raised them with the expectations of a better future, and to inhabit a world oriented towards that but which hasn't transpired to meet those expectations. This makes them feel betrayed and sidelined. Civilization and buzzwords such as rights, progress, and democracy provide a veneer of improvement but what lies behind is a deep visceral distrust for the system, disorientation from a lack of social belonging, and disgust for a culture that condescends them. Many people in the West who have a heritage elsewhere - aren't inclined to fight for it. A lot of them had their homelands colonized and pillaged. And the natives within the West feel forgotten and spat on by the state and system that hollowed out their quality of life through floods of migration lowering their wages and outsourcing to cheaper labor pools globally. This is the same system which would now like to use them as fodder for their wars. The people in general are far more aware of the stupidity of war, and who it really serves (the few over the many) and the propaganda that is exercised on them to brainwash them into a state of war. After the Middle East debacle and lies that led to it (weapons of mass destruction) - people are wary of war in general. That doesn't rule out war, its just more likely that the war won't be for the system or state, but against it.

To the moderate Israeli's to not get triggered when people refer to 'Zionists' the nuance of how the word is used should be explained. I think a lot of those speaking against 'Zionism' don't necessarily mean the eradication of Israel as a state, but the eradication of an oppressive apartheid version of the state. If the idea of Zionism means a state and homeland for Jews then most can be for it (regardless of if they are against ethno-states in general - that's another conversation). But if Zionism means a state for Jews that is formed and exists till today at the expense of local inhabitants within their borders or surrounding it, a state that goes beyond its borders to form a Greater Israel and encroaches land through settlement expansion, and a state that denies local inhabitants outside of its borders statehood and keeps them in a limbo state of affairs which involves a violent 'security' structure that is routinely resisted against - most are against this version of Zionism. Call it ultra-Zionism. The British philosopher Bertrand Russell's warning from 1970 on Israel's strategy in the Middle East: 'For over 20 years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to “reason” and has suggested “negotiations”. 'This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has already taken by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression. 'The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annex foreign territory, but because every expansion is an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.'

And they will silence anyone who will. Like the notorious Henry Kissinger said ' It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal.' Now Biden has has halted LNG exports, only further squeezing those dependent on them - mainly Europe. The economic heart of the EU - Germany is slowly de-industrializing. European competition is reduced and US dependence is solidified, including US industry. This isn't to attribute conspiratorial intention, but rather points to the opportunism of corporatism which is amoral and cares nothing for any nation or its citizens except for those who sit in the boardrooms. The irony is that Europe is still buying oil from their Russian 'enemy' through the back door - just at a higher price and suffering of their own people with cost of living, industry losses and lay offs. Russian oil is being bought up by India and other intermediaries, refined and repackaged and sold at a profit back to Europe. 'Sanctions' at work. Instead of peace they would rather continue to ratchet up world war 3 rhetoric and let their own people suffer because their ego can't handle a multi-polar world. Shame.

The pimps of war and the narrative orchestraters of empire don't want this interview to drop tonight - especially by one of their own who has big reach. It goes against information interests and exposes the underbelly of imperialism, the hypocrisy and the propaganda. The pointless death of countless lives can be attributed to this imperial war machine that throws anyone or thing under the bus for its own greedy interest, including its own 'allies'. Women are being sent to die for this because they’re low on men - but no mainstream western media outlet or spokesperson will be let to admit defeat or speak of it. They then spin their women going to war as if it’s some win and to show that they’re ‘built different’. Disgusting propaganda for perverted ends. It’s so horrific that they can't afford the truth to come out in any way that shows the West has any responsibility in this. The word provocation doesn’t enter or exist in their dictionary, neither does the red lines of other powers that have explicitly been shared. Instead, the West are the only unipolar power of the world - a false reality they fail to let go of and will allow countless lives to die for. They believe in a rules based order dictated by them, not international law equally applies to all as a matter of principle. Not to mention the billions of dollars that domestically aren't used and are instead sent and recycled into corrupt pockets. This doesn’t discount the devilry of other nations, but it doesn’t invalidate the analysis of devilry the West commits - if only one is able to detox from the propaganda that seeps into them if they live within the West (like fish in water) - the Global South are much more aware of this reality.

Honey, I'm home. BREAKING: Netanyahu rejects cease-fire deal with Hamas and vows to fight until "absolute victory." This madman will set Israel and the world on fire just to delay his inevitable removal from power and the consequences from a pending corruption court case against him. Keep this in mind in future discussions when Zionists bring up the fact that many peace proposals are rejected by Palestinians - without delving into the details of those proposals or hoping those they discuss with have a short memory or are ignorant of the details. Even Saudi Arabia has now come out and said no normalization with Israel will take place without a recognized Palestinian state. At the same time a poll shows half of Israel don't want a Palestinian state. Similar to a poll early on in the conflict that showed 60% didn't think Israel was using enough firepower (after dropping the equivalent of two Hiroshimas on a tiny populated area of civilians unable to flee) - keep these poll results in mind next time Zionists claim its only a few extremists in their government, or use Netenyahu as a scapegoat for the systemic entitlement and dehumanizing sentiment a lot of Israeli society has for Palestinians. 'Zionism backs Palestinians into a corner from which they can either die in silence and darkness, leave Palestine and accept the erasure of their homeland, or fight back. Then, when they fight back, Zionists audaciously play victim on the world stage. Truly dystopian..'

Should be terrifying to Westerners that the elites of their very own 'democracy' are capable of such heartless actions. What happened to innocent till proven guilty and even if found guilty - the proportionate persecution of the wrong doers, not the whole organisation. By that logic many Western institutions should be de-funded, boycotted by the world and dismantled for the actions of the few glorified gangsters in black suits that are among them ie collective punishment. Israel and its allies successfully moved the conversation from 'a plausible case of genocide ruled by the top world court' to 'we'll cut off aid to the most aid-dependent population who have nowhere to flee and who have just been ruled to be under a plausible genocide - all because of unsubstantiated claims by a state that has been proven to lie many times before'.

The framing from Zionists is that Israel is rewarding Palestinians something rather than returning something they have a right to by international law. It isn't a gift Israel is giving because their so moral and noble but a right of return. Even the UK are now working towards that as Karmadi noted. As far as Hamas are concerned - they aren't the sole reason or root cause of the conflict, but a natural outcome of conflict that arises from Israels denial of Palestinian self determination and dignity. @Nivsch @Karmadhi Interesting discussion about the state borders. I think besides the borders and structure of the state whats also important are the contents of it. Such as security controls, is it militarized or not, is there Israeli presence within it, and the settlement issue is a big one as we can see in the map above. The settlements make it logistically impossible to have a state because of the way they are spread across the land. It encircles Palestinian land making them like ghettos, pockets or like swiss cheese with holes in it. No continuous land area to run a state within, transport goods and services or people, or have ease of access to resources. Would these settlements remain in the protection of Israel? Because that isn't a proper Palestinian state then but an occupation as is already the case.

Same, taking a break just like @kenway Probably will return when some new developments happen but am discoursed out now. Have a good week everyone - and don’t forget to smell the roses.

@Bobby_2021 When you occupy a people, bully them on their own land and deny them their right to self determination and sovereignty, and put them in a pressure cooker environment - you should be prepared for what comes your way. Just like how in Syria 3 US troops have now been killed and many more injured. Their very presence is a invitation to violence and chaos, designed to undermine the legitimacy of a sovereign nation and act as a catalyst for a pre-emptive attack on Iran once one or some of their troops eventually gets taken out by Iran or a Iran backed militia.

According to the highlighted bold words in your post. If they are an apartheid, naturally this will be resisted against. That resistance is then labelled terrorism. If it is easy to identify, why can't you define it? A google search will do, or is that it will lead you to a reality you can't admit to. The point is different people have used different methods of resistance. Vietnamese, Afghans, Algerians, South Africans during apartheid resisted more violently than India, but the point is their resistance is legitimized, their cause is legit, despite the way they conduct it (with violence). You will allow the British to administer, but not control the country. Would you allow the British to have control over India's borders, resources, air space and waters? Exactly. Same for the Palestinians, they are allowed to administer their area, but they don't control it in the way the occupying force of Israel does.

@Danioover9000 Thats a thorough analysis above.

Did Palestinians control their own border of Gaza, water and air space? Define occupation and define terrorism? What are your definitions. Why is it known to be occupied territories globally. Pop your own bubble my friend or the harsh reality of avoiding reality will do it for you eventually.

120 if for the Knesset. 37 are the number of ministers who have more executive power. Out of those ministers 12 went to this event calling for settlement expansion in Gaza which is displacement and ethnic cleansing, which is a subset of genocide, which is ruled as plausible by the ICJ. But okay, lets say 10%. Thats still way more involved in some way (by attending this event) in the crime of ethnic cleansing vs 0.04% of people involved in October 7th. Usually there is a investigation done before someone is prosecuted. In this case it was only a allegation - even then, UNRWA sacked those 12 employees and started a investigation. Lets make it 12 criminals x 10 to make it 120 criminals involved in October 7th. Out of 13'000 workers in Gaza thats just about 1%. So why should a whole organisation that is needed as a life line to people who are undergoing a atrocity be defunded? It's not even being defunded after the atrocity at a separate time but during it and arguably at the most critical time when they need it as validated by the urgency and ruling of the ICJ - the worlds highest court. If you are unable to empathise with Palestinians lets make this a Jewish example. Lets say during the Holocaust and German persecution of the Jews there was a UN agency aiding and helping Jews who have been persecuted, and within this agency there were a few Jewish members who were part of the Warsaw uprising. Now, should the whole agency be defunded because of a small percentage of workers committing crimes which from their point of view was just resistance anyway? Hope you can see the point and how heartless this is.

12 of Israel’s 37 government ministers were at this event. Almost a third - 33%. Should the government stop being funded by US? The same government that is on trial for Genocide. Vs 12 out of 13’000 who work for UNRWA in Gaza (not out of 30’000 total in Middle East which makes the percentage 0.04%) were allegedly involved which is 0.09% of the work force - but they should be de-funded and not a ethnic cleansing, apartheid maintaining government?

@Nivsch Celebrating injustice is sick and wrong. I think what people mean when they celebrated was that they are celebrating the liberation of breaking free from being caged in by Israel - not the deaths and massacring that Hamas were doing that they were unaware of at the time. When wars are won, the winning side celebrate at victory, should they celebrate after so many deaths? Who knows, war is bad for all in general. Unnecessary death over diplomacy. Should Israeli's be celebrating the eradication of Gaza and the settlements expansion in it as the video below shows: One is a celebration of liberation while the other is a celebration of legitimising ethnic cleansing, displacement and settlements. From the same event: Listen to her words. We won’t give the Arabs any food, they will leave, the world will take them. In other words, collective punishment. Shouldn’t this be defunded? This is the leader of the settlement movement, her name is Daniella Weiss.

There are issues in large scale organisations. That doesn't mean its the sole intent of the organisation. If there are a few bad segments within it that are overlooked they should be investigated and persecuted. But that doesn't mean stopping the whole organisation itself which is a life line for Palestinians - especially the day after a plausible case for Genocide has been ruled. UNRWA represents and symbolises the existence of refugees and the right of return for them - this is something Israel doesn't want to exist because it reminds the world of the existence of Israel's wrong actions that led to a refugee situation in Gaza in the first place. They also don't want UNRWA to keep alive the idea of a right to return which they facilitate and that Israel wouldn't want for Gazans to return when expelled from Gaza. Just yesterday there was a event about establishing settlements in Gaza with 12 out of 36 Knesset member present. Should we now defund the Knesset because of this violation? What about Epstein files and mossad connections, should we defund Mossad? How many IDF have committed war crimes? What about all we have seen in the past 3 months with there arrogant tik tok videos and journalists. Should the whole IDF be defunded? Should the US de-fund Israel because it has committed war crimes, been accused of plausible genocide, does ethnic cleansing in West Bank, has someone who Israeli's themselves called a terrorist (Ben Gvir) in their cabinet? This has been done strategically by Israel - released the report and allegation the day of the hearing if it wasn't in their favour (which it wasn't) to distract from it and punish the UN. America is doing Israels dirty work , and now with escalations by the US army casualties in Syria/Jordan they are calling for war with Iran which will have ripple affects globally if allowed to happen. All because the US can't stop Israel from massacring and would rather pursue imperialism and war profits.

There are degrees to things - a spectrum of oppression exists. Were women so oppressed by patriarchy in the past because they couldn’t vote? Did they need to protest and even go as far as the suffragettes who vandalised buildings in protest? The level of resistance is in line with the level of oppression. Resistance doesn't have to exclusively be only to the most extreme absolute versions of oppression and it doesn't deny the fact that some form of oppression is occurring that needs resisting and protesting to. Ethnic cleansing/displacement is still happening whether they live in a nice house in West Bank or not. Fundamental rights, such as right to self determination and right to return are denied. They are occupied and bullied in their own land. By your logic, if a group of people run a society better that entitles them to rule over another group - almost like a colonial argument. If the Japanese run society well and have one of the best economies, is clean, efficient and safe should they rule over other people? Should the British rule India? What’s your definition of terrorism? We should give as much weight to the sociological framework of genocide as we do to the legal framework of genocide, especially considering that the legal framework was established in a manner built to protect the most powerful states in the world from accountability. The legal framework under which we prosecute genocide is limited and has always been limited. It is so limited that not even Germany has ever been convicted of genocide and yet when the Holocaust is denied, we deem it correctly as genocide denialism. - Arnesa Buljusmic-Kustura (Genocide researcher)

Here’s a short clip on the use of freedom of speech regarding religion: And if you like that a slightly longer one by the same speaker which is interesting. Start at 3 min 30 sec.

@Heaven You’ve called for two users to be banned in the last two days. Leo and moderators are there for a reason / that’s within their authority not ours. If certain videos challenge your worldview too much take a break - though you haven’t been present on this thread for long. But yes, too much propaganda and link sharing can be annoying. That said - I can bring links that are not Al Jazeera but more pro-Israeli Murdoch media that would still probably bug you out lol.

@_Archangel_ Agreed. There have been posts here regarding a wider context and the macro view of the situation. The issue is a lot of those underlying dynamics just aren’t accepted such as that there is an occupation, apartheid lite structure or a slow motion ethnic cleansing campaign happening since decades. The common rebuttal is that this is propaganda or that Jews have been persecuted for centuries so anything required for a safe state is justified. At my current understanding I see the core dynamic (macro) of the situation as the following; - Israel was a humanitarian project with good intent married to colonial project with colonial intent, in an era when de-colonisation was occurring and it was no longer accepted. What made this an exception was the horrifying atrocity of the Holocaust. - They sought to establish a Jewish majority state in a Arab majority land and population. To achieve this would require demographic engineering using laws, guns and a strong narrative to justify it. - What came from it was two controlled territories recognised as occupied but that have been allowed to be ‘run’ by Palestinians in a limited way as a way to deflect from the fact that they are occupied even though they are (West Bank internally - Gaza externally). - To accomplish this would require mastering propaganda, weaponising past traumas such as the Holocaust and using labels such as anti-Semitic to nuke criticism. Intertwining with institutions of world powers and the worlds superpower to ensure constant support for it doesn’t hurt either. - Naturally to uphold such a structure requires oppression and violence. Just as it is natural for blood to arise from a wound, resistance will arise against oppression as a consequence. Any resistance to oppression is then gaslighted as terrorism to dehumanise and discredit their cause. Narrative control. - As far as isolated events (October 7th): cunning and powerful nations will focus on the latest event they feel transgressed against and leave out any wider context leading up to it, including any provocations on their part (Ukraine/Russia). They behave as if the word provocation doesn’t exist in the dictionary and then act like the event that erupted into war was simply done in a vacuum. - On an even wider geopolitical context: we are entering a multipolar a world where the West aren’t the unipolar hegemon. This is why more nations are emboldened to challenge them. It’s not that they aren’t a power, they just aren’t the only one - and they haven’t acclimated to the fact. When entities die out, they lash out in retaliation to their egos getting hurt, acting and flexing to remain top dog which is now only seen as a liability by the world. Whether they accept this fact or destabilise the world because they can’t remains to be seen - many steps can clearly be seen for the latter. Making it relevant to Israel’s situation, just see what actions have been taken and the timing of them. The night of South Africa’s hearing in ICJ (wasn’t broadcast in the West) they bombed Yemen to deflect attention and show who’s in charge. The day following ICJ’s ruling that a plausible case for Genocide exists they pull funding from UNRWA (UN aid for Palestinians) for similar reasons and which is now all over Western news rather than the case itself. This was done on allegation from Israel that 12 members (who have now been sacked and are under investigation) were involved in October 7th. UNRWA employs 30’000 people, so for 0.4% of criminal activity you shut down a agency that is most needed the day after the top world court has legitimised a genocide in process implying the need for such a agency. If 0.4% of the NHS (UK’s national health service) were criminal, does that justify pulling the plug on the whole thing? Or is it a retaliation. The West are now in breach of the Geneva convention which was just emphasised a day earlier ( facilitation of aid ). The US leads the way and Europe follows like lapdogs. Just like Edward Snowden said: the US/EU facility criminal activity and enable Israel. This isn’t to be anti-West (I’m in the west, from it and pro it) but the establishment and devilry needs to be called out and addressed, and true Western values need to be lived (pro-humanity, tolerance , justice and old values we thought we evolved out of discarded: covert imperialism, colonialism and predatory capitalism)

Probably will (disobey) already have. The response has been the usual remarks by some of the government - anti-Semitic and mockery. Ben Gvir tweeted Hague Schmague - pariah state behaviour. A lot of pro-Israeli media have tried spinning it as a win lol that just because the court didn’t order a ceasefire the case is bogus, but they omit everything else including that a plausible case for genocide has been made and all the orders are in effect a ceasefire - just not in name. Guessing the system (ICJ) didn’t want to stand up too straight against Western empire and give South Africa the complete win - they spared them complete embarrassment, gave a off-ramp, and probably saved themselves in the process too. On a more technical note some have said ceasefire implies two warring militarised states which isn’t the case so the term wasn’t applied. I’m no longer frustrated when talking to avid Zionists because like fish in the sea, they are submerged in the propaganda of their state which has seeped into them like microplastics in water. The danger this presents is that they can go on as usual by the false propaganda their state dishes out to them which causes a moral hazard. If made to believe all is okay and they don’t police their hate inciting language they ultimately self own themselves. Maybe we can’t even lay blame to them similar to how we can’t always lay blame to children with poor parenting - which in this case is that US has parented their child and baby, the 51st state of the US otherwise known as Israel. What we see is the result of 7 decades of impunity and no accountability manifestly on display that makes anyone suffer from 2nd degree embarrassment from watching the delusion, denial and distortion. I don’t say this with glee but with worry for their own image to the world and for them to continue business as usual which Palestinians suffer from and which doesn’t help regional peace. I think the only chance of them stopping is US and Western power pressuring them / not enabling them further. Spin doctor: Edward speaking out. Will the White House show a white heart or a black one in their response at the next resolutions.

True. I think another aspect is that the biases we see from the 'other' side can lead to frustration to the point each side will want to share isolated events which can help pop the other sides bubble and let them see that its not that they have biases, but that biases actually have them completely imprisoned. Similar to the fact that its not that people have routines or power but that routines and power have them as their servants. ie the guy who feels he can't get his day started without his 3 hour biohacking routine and anything missed ruins his day, or so he thinks lol. If a isolated event is stark enough and individualized it can be a powerful tool at exposing our biases. When we hear large numbers like 10'000 dead it doesn't impact the same way seeing a named face who has dreams, aching eyes and a story behind them. Hits deeper and shakes us out of apathetic dehumanization and overlooking our 'sides' actions in perpetuating that suffering. Yeah jumping to conclusions too quickly is problematic. So is repeatedly leaving these isolated events one after another to accumulate dust while the other side uses them deflecting their responsibility and amplifying the event to then justify the continued horrors they commit. I think thats also a big reason why people rush to straighten out the facts and propaganda that has deadly consequences. If it wasn't consequential they probably wouldn't. Its really messy.