zazen

This thread is losing the needle with the racism from both sides. The tide is turning even among Isreals allies - France, Belgium and now Canada speaking of constraint. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/15/netanyahu-blasts-trudeau-after-he-says-israels-killing-of-babies-must-end “The world is witnessing this killing of women, of children, of babies. This has to stop,” - Trudeau Usually the criminality of US allies gets ignored, downplayed and frantically obfuscated, while the criminality of US enemies gets spotlighted, exaggerated, and pushed to the forefront of international attention. But the in your face double standards on full display on the world stage is too much and too obvious that even the West seems to be changing its tone.

Good post I agree with but hadn’t the time to properly respond. That’s exactly right, the best contribution to peace are good conditions and economic prospects which is why many opposed the siege and blockade as it thwarts economic development. The common argument against that is that they could use that wealth for terrorism. South Africa’s apartheid ended and they seemed to have lived peacefully for now. If both sides can get to a position of a decent amount of economic prosperity and that are interdependent on each other then I assume Hamas wouldn’t have much reason to exist. Much like Europe after world war becoming economically intertwined to be incentivised to cooperate and not ruin a good thing - prosperity. I think Saudi normalising ties with Israel and sidelining the Palestinian issue was taken as a stab in the back and Hamas couldn’t let that happen as you said.

@lina That's so sad. I think it serves a purpose to display the extremes on both sides - not to play whataboutism but to open everyone to their own bias's.

That's the issue, its a grassroots resistance with terrorist factions and tactics being used. With a grassroots movement if you cut the grass more grows because the core cause is not being treated. Unless complete destruction is unleashed and the soil destroyed, but that would mean genocide of innocents. That's what Israels periodic operations were called - 'mowing the lawn/grass'. Not total destruction (genocide) but keeping Hamas and any resistance in check every few years or so in a cycle that will never actually end. Different interests benefited from this. Politically always having a enemy to unify the people against and playing the strong savior which Bibi did, militarily industry obviously - they even call Gaza 'the lab' where they would test the latest military tech to sell to the world - a big chunk of Israels economy. https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/products/2684-the-palestine-laboratory https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/mow-lawn-israel’s-strategy-perpetual-war-palestinians-185775

Like Elon Musk said you can't try to get rid of Hamas in a way that only recruit more people to it ie militarily unless you genocide the whole population - even if they are ethnically displaced into Egypt or wherever, they will only plot their return and revenge from further away. If Israel or any countries safety requires the occupation, imprisonment and oppression of a people, you don't have safety and never will. History has shown us this by the dismantling of the colonial powers. If the return of Jews to the land was through immigration that's one thing, but to take the land off people already there is another and is bound to be resisted. The good intentions of Jews and Jewish sympathizers who sought to have them be somewhere safe was hijacked by a colonial nationalist mindset which was present at the time. The cause and sentiment of return and a safe haven is fine, but the strategy and way in which it was and is being done isn't. Everything that colonial power gains will be inherently violent and must be upheld through violence - that violence will be justified through ideas of superiority and the idea that those you oppress must be more violent and oppressive than you. And when that oppression is resisted and eventually violently resisted, that violence will be used to feed the fear needed to maintain the oppressive structure / apartheid state, a cycle set in motion by the colonizers and which frames the colonized as the undeveloped violent ones that need be tamed in a modern world. The key thing that needs ending is the occupation, oppression and apartheid state. The solution is either a one secular state that is equal or a two state solution but a proper two state solution which allows Palestinians control of its borders - not a state like in West Bank where Israel control their lives more and more without dignity. The two state solution carrot has been dangled in front of the Palestinians for years and all this time Israel has been allowing settlements to encroach the land of West Bank - knowing that this will eventually make it almost impossible because you'd have to remove over 500'000 settlers. Ariel Sharon became minister for Agriculture in 1977 and promoted a settlement program for West Bank and Gaza. And now Tony Blair is reportedly being installed as a humanitarian coordinator in Gaza. He is a patron of JNF with Netenyahu which is the largest settlement building organisation. It's clear that they don't want a two state solution, they want all the land and feel entitled to it. Just take a look at the foundation first prime minister of Israel: “We must expel Arabs and take their place. Up to now, all our aspirations have been based on an assumption – one that has been vindicated throughout our activities in the country – that there is enough room in the land for the Arabs and ourselves. But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.” - Ben Gurion Source: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2013/04/06/the-ben-gurion-letter/ The problem is easier to see, but the solution harder to get to unfortunately. Both sides need new and less radical leadership and both peoples need to transmute their traumas rather than become terrorized by them and perpetuate the cycle of trauma and distrust.

Islamist's are violent because human nature can be violent. The mature view is that humans are like Russian dolls that have a beast deep down within that can be visited. That can take expression through any culture, context or on any continent. Nature doesn't change, the lens through which it unfolds does. Every idea can become a ideology which can ferment extremist strains of itself. Muslims have done bad and so have other peoples. Just look at world war 1 and 2, communism, the holocaust and the crusades not to mention the regime change and war on terror at the hands of US empire - none of that was done by muslims. The only regime that needs changing is the one that goes around changing and toppling countries and societies. And now we are in a chicken or the egg situation where terrorist extremist elements have been created not only from grassroots as a resistance but top down funded by Western agencies (including Hamas by Bibi) and we point fingers to show how undeveloped and violent certain kind of people are. But is it that they are so or that circumstances made them so.

Doomed ideaologies like hindutva, zionism and white nationalism are basically kicking against the sunrise, they are in their death throes, they are flailing against their own inevitable demise and the closer they get to the end the more panicked they get, the more desperate they get and that makes them become more violent,they're lashing out because they're dying out.''

@MuadDib @BlueOak both very well said and written. Israelis who’ve been marinating in a self-validating echo chamber of Zionist ideology which dehumanizes Palestinians and normalizes oppression and abuse don’t think twice about saying things that make Israel look bad on the world stage, because to them it’s just the standard status quo way of looking at things. Some years ago The Empire Files’ Abby Martin put together a devastating critique of the Zionist ideology just by going around the streets of Jerusalem with a camera and a microphone and talking to Jewish Israelis about their views on Palestinians. Over and over and over again they shared their support for tyranny, murder, genocide and ethnic cleansing in their own words and without hesitation, never thinking that their words could be used to harm Israel’s image, because to them these were just normal things that they said all the time in their day to day life. You see the same sort of thing when Israelis are filmed sitting in lawn chairs to watch and cheer IDF bombing operations on Palestinian neighborhoods, during which a woman once told the press “I’m just a little bit fascist” after advocating the total destruction of Gaza City. Every time this happens it sends viral video footage around the internet and does real damage to the world’s perception of Israel. That’s a big part of why Israel is struggling to control the narrative about the Gaza massacre today, which is in turn being exacerbated by more incendiary statements by Israelis, not just from the general public but from within the Israeli government itself.

@PurpleTree @Nivsch @Lila9 ”One problem Israel keeps running into is how the institutionalized dehumanization of Palestinians which keeps the apartheid state operational also causes Israelis to say things that non-Israelis will find extremely shocking, which hurts Israel’s PR interests. We saw this illustrated in a recent New Yorker interview with Daniella Weiss, a leader of the push to build illegal Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. Weiss stated frankly and unapologetically that she supports apartheid, that she doesn’t believe Palestinians should have any sovereignty anywhere, that she doesn’t believe Palestinians should have voting rights, that she wants the population of Gaza to be replaced by Israeli settlements, and that she is untroubled by the killing of children in Gaza because she feels it’s being done in the interests of Israeli children. “In Israel, there’s a lot of support for settlements, and this is why there have been right-wing governments for so many years. The world, especially the United States, thinks there is an option for a Palestinian state, and, if we continue to build communities, then we block the option for a Palestinian state. We want to close the option for a Palestinian state, and the world wants to leave the option open. It’s a very simple thing to understand.” That one paragraph right there will teach you more about the present-day realities of the Israel-Palestine conflict than an entire year of watching CNN. It’s horrid, and it’s jarring to hear it spoken out loud in a favorable way… but it’s true. This sort of thing has been happening for years. Israelis who’ve been marinating in a self-validating echo chamber of Zionist ideology which dehumanizes Palestinians and normalizes oppression and abuse don’t think twice about saying things that make Israel look bad on the world stage, because to them it’s just the standard status quo way of looking at things. In 2021 a settler from New York named Yaakov Fauci made headlines around the world with his candid statements to a Palestinian family whose Sheikh Jarrah home he was squatting in. Fauci, apparently fully aware that he was being filmed, famously replied to the family’s complaints that he was stealing their home by shamelessly telling them, “If I don’t steal it, someone else will steal it.” And the thing is, he wasn’t lying. He was truthfully describing an abusive dynamic in apartheid Israel where Palestinians are being forced out of their homes in order to control ethnic demographics and advance the agenda outlined above by Daniella Weiss. If he’d been a trained propagandist for the Israeli state he never would have made such comments on camera, but because he was just a Zionism-indocrinated member of the Israeli public he saw no reason to hold his tongue. When talking about the Gaza assault Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made headlines by invoking the biblical nation of Amalek, whose people God instructed the Israelites to commit total genocide against. The first book of Samuel contains the instructions, “Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” President Isaac Herzog insinuated last month that all civilians in Gaza are legitimate military targets because they failed to overthrow Hamas, saying, “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.” When announcing the total siege on Gaza which would see the enclave cut off from electricity, food, water and fuel, Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant stated that “we are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly.” IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari said Israel would turn Gaza into a “city of tents” and that Israel’s “emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” in its bombing campaign. Dan Gillerman, Israel’s former ambassador to the UN, said last month that “I am very puzzled by the constant concern which the world is showing for the Palestinian people and is actually showing for these horrible, inhuman animals who have done the worst atrocities that this century has seen.” “Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal,” a major general named Giora Eiland wrote in an Israeli newspaper, adding, “Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.” Israel’s allies keep trying to portray it as a rational actor and a positive force in the world, but if you listen to Israelis themselves you get a very different understanding of what this murderous apartheid state is actually about.” - Caitlin Johnstone https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzmgGf7r0L3/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==Others https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czmp3E3rK1Y/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

It seems the aim is a Gazan Nakba and to take the land as Netenyahu says indefinitely. https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czmp3E3rK1Y/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Look at what Avi Dirtcher has said.

@Hatfort Well written. Hassan Abi is pretty on point.

@Nivsch Avi Dirchter (minister of Agriculture) is calling it the Nakba of Gaza. https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czmp3E3rK1Y/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Macron can support Israel’s right to defend itself is while also supporting a ceasefire. The hostages are being bombed too.

“We must expel Arabs and take their place. Up to now, all our aspirations have been based on an assumption – one that has been vindicated throughout our activities in the country – that there is enough room in the land for the Arabs and ourselves. But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.” - Ben Gurion ( First prime minister of Israel ) Source: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2013/04/06/the-ben-gurion-letter/

https://x.com/AbbyMartin/status/1723871914697838751?s=20 ''37 prematurely born babies detached from their incubators at Al Shifa Gaza hospital under attack and siege due to lack of electricity and oxygen and now wrapped in blankets to avoid hypothermia. Kept alive with basic medical methods and at risk of death (2 died earlier today)'' https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-12/ty-article/israeli-security-cabinet-member-calls-north-gaza-evacuation-nakba-2023/0000018b-c2be-dea2-a9bf-d2be7b670000 https://x.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453?s=20 - video of Avi Dichter mentioning this to be a Gaza Nakba. No translation offered so if someone who speaks hebrew can confirm that would be great - although Hareetz already has which is reputable enough? "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba," says Avi Dichter, Israel's Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet. Palestinians will get no right to return to the newly conquered land of northern Gaza. Encroachment and settlements just like in West bank except on a mass scale. They will frame helping Gazans to move South to 'safety' as heroic, moral and noble all the whilst the true intention is that of a land grab. Propaganda uses decent human emotion to support indecent inhumane actions.

That’s a shame. Sad to see them make fools of themselves for personal gain, fame or because the world just doesn’t listen to their cause. Their opportunism doesn’t invalidate the immense amounts of suffering we are seeing however as one can see for themselves in the link below: https://x.com/gozukarafurkan/status/1723798343040614634?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ That can’t all be “Pallywood.” My response to Pallywood wouldn’t be that “most of the suffering is fabricated and denying a humanitarian crises exists that breaks international law” but “why is it they need to stoop so low - because the world doesn’t listen to their cause or because that’s their source of possible income due to Israel blockading and hindering their economic development.” My response to Hamas having significant support in Gaza is not "Oh well exterminate everyone in Gaza then," it's "Wow, how hellish must Israel have made life in Gaza for that to be the case?"

The Israeli propaganda machine is unmatched: “I’m not saying that the life in Gaza is great,” Israeli Ambassador Gilad Erdan said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “And, obviously, Hamas is the only one that should be held accountable for any situation in Gaza. But there is a standard, due to international humanitarian law. What does it mean, a humanitarian crisis? And I’m saying, again, there is no humanitarian crisis, based on the international humanitarian law right now in Gaza.” Denial of reality, denial that the world is waking up en mass. I write this from the gym in London, where even on BBC they are showing incubator babies dead from the electrical cuts to the hospital. Yesterday marked one of the largest protests in UK history with almost 1 million people. Unlike the incubator hoax story that led to US getting involved in the gulf wars this is evidently in our faces. I don’t see how Israel can recover from this tarnished reputation. “The witness who testified before the U.S. Congress was later identified as the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States. The information provided was part of a larger effort by the Kuwaiti government to garner international support against Iraqi aggression.“

If only Bibi could become habibi

Of course they have ties. I should have clarified that a lot of secular Jews base their Jewish identity on ethnicity and culture and have civic ties to the places they now live in more than they have nationalistic religious tie to Israel. Even if they do have an affiliation to Israel, that doesn’t mean you can elevate Jewish historical ties and claim the land but deny the Palestinians historic and present day ties to the land. It needs to be a shared heritage and land for all the people not just the Jews. The argument that Jews have only one homeland while Muslims have multiple lands oversimplifies the diversity within these groups. Muslims, like Jews, have distinct cultural, historical, and national identities. We can’t move Spanish people all to Italy just because they share European values and have Catholic ties for example - they have distinct identities based off their culture and land.

Well put 👍🏻 although I don’t think Palestinians reward extremists as much as they have no options left to emancipate themselves with. Even amongst Hamas their are factions and infighting and some more extreme than others.

Allowing Jews who have little to no tie to Israel the right to return and settle on someone else’s land doesn’t seem high value or consciousness to me. The people who were expelled from that land and are refugees don’t have a right to return but someone who has no connection except that maybe he has a ancestor from 2000 years ago who lived there has right to return. I don’t know how these people feel no shame for this? Only if they believe they are gods chosen people.

What is your definition of apartheid? Why do many reputable organisations that call it that then. Even Israel’s own human rights group B'Tselem stated in a 2021 report that Israel is maintaining a maintaining a regime of Jewish supremacy, which it considers as apartheid.

So the world is lower in consciousness and higher values than Israel? And that’s why they don’t ‘understand’ Israel - because they haven’t grown up to its level?

There were protestors for those as well. The difference with this is that its been going on for decades without end, building and brewing. And now with more right wing nationalist governments coming to power all over the world Israel is ahead and gone too far right with its policies and encroaching of the West Bank for example. That mixed with social media today where all is visible is what’s made the world awake to this cause. People have been condemning Hamas but also are for the Palestinians to be made free. Can you see that Israel is an apartheid state? Babies dying in hospitals due to lack of electricity and resources that Israel has cut off. Is every Hospital or the whole of Northern Gaza a Hamas camp site or base? This is just unjustifiable - even Israel’s own allies such as Belgium and Macron from France are saying this. Even when Elon Musl says that Israel’s strategy will only create more Hamas fighters pro Israelis just say he’s unwise and doesn’t know any better. The arrogance and narcissism is palpable - and in the end parasitic to the host that harbours it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna124786

Most people don’t support terrorists but a just cause to resist oppression and a modern day apartheid state which needs be dismantled in a post apartheid world. Modernity has no appetite for apartheid. Yes, the cause which at its core is a resistance movement was used by terrorist factions or more extreme people who use terrorist tactics - but that doesn’t invalidate the cause or excuse Israel’s actions. If someone thinks a solution to the Palestinian issue is that they should remain under the rule or control of Israel because they are undeveloped or may cause terror you are calling for an apartheid state. Apartheid as a system, is inherently discriminatory and involves institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination. That makes them a racist at worst and a racist sympathiser at best.