zazen

So that gives another group of people the right to govern and rule them? Sounds colonial to me. It is possible to be a stage green terrorist. You can have stage green values, talking points and hold those positions yet have a stage red heart, state of being and disposition. Just as America can have a white house and yet a black heart. ''Oh look how good our liberty, feminism and democracy is, - lets go around the world overthrowing governments and starting wars in the name of it.'' People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values. Maybe the whole Arab world should just give up to Israel as the supreme rulers because their so 'developed'. Maybe the Japanese or Singaporeans should rule the world because their societies are very orderly, clean and safe compared to everywhere else.

Israel never wanted or believed in a two state solution. This is in their charter. They won't compromise on West Bank or Gaza and will keep occupying, encroaching and suffocating the Palestinians till they expel themselves or wither away from poor living conditions. Israel denies them their past, makes their present dire, and kills any future hope for them. “The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party?utm_content=cmp-true “We must expel Arabs and take their place. Up to now, all our aspirations have been based on an assumption – one that has been vindicated throughout our activities in the country – that there is enough room in the land for the Arabs and ourselves. But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.” - Ben Gurion ( First prime minister of Israel ) https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2013/04/06/the-ben-gurion-letter/ The change also needs to come from a paradigm shift within and from the Israeli side. Are you willing to see this? The audacity for someone to come to your house and then negotiate with you how much of it you can have due to their narcissistic entitlement to it. Some of her words: ''I want to have for the Jewish nation the promised land from the Bible. From the Euphrates (river in Iraq) to the Nile (in Egypt), and I'm sure it will be. Even parts of Syria, Iraq even Iran. Many people believe in it.''

As you say yourself, only after the Arabs started resisting - resisting what? Occupation and oppression. That is their right. I found this video very interesting on the 6 day war and possible causes to it. From what I've read they weren't offered true sovereignty or control of their borders. That's where they would have issue. The audacity for someone to come to your house and then negotiate with you how much of it you can have, and the part that you do have you don't even get full control over lol. Only people with zero dignity or self respect could concede to such offers. How are Palestinians offered a state but without their own army or control of their borders, that's not offering a state but a land that is still occupied. Occupation doesn't just mean Israelis sitting on Palestinians laps, it can also include control of such basic rights that extend to any state.

@Lila9 Of course they would rather live in Israel than the Palestinian areas because those areas are blockaded and occupied to the point of terrible living conditions. - How does your economy develop if exports of produce and commercial goods from Gaza are banned or severely restricted? -Since 2000, Israel has prevented students in Gaza from traveling to study at universities in the West Bank, some of which offer fields of study and degrees not available in Gaza. According to a report from Haaretz newspaper, between 2000 and 2012 Israel let just three Gazans travel to study at universities in the West Bank, all of whom had received US government scholarships. - In early 2006, Dov Weisglass, then a senior advisor to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, explained that Israel’s policy towards Gaza was designed “to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.” - In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army.

Interesting and likely but only up to an extent. We can see enough with our own eyes from social media and no it’s not all Pallywood. Even if all the men who die are ‘combatants’ it still leaves over 7’000 women and children civilians.

@Twentyfirst He's good but I feel too optimistic on the one state solution. Israel wouldn't allow it to happen , especially after whats happened. Too much distrust and bad blood. If there is a one state it wouldn't be allowed to be democratic due to Palestinians outnumbering the Israeli's. A settlement leaders reaction to a two state solution : Some of her words: ''I want to have for the Jewish nation the promised land from the Bible. From the Euphrates (river in Iraq) to the Nile (in Egypt), and I'm sure it will be. Even parts of Syria, Iraq even Iran. Many people believe in it.''

More children died in Gaza in the last month than all the wars in the world for the last three years combined. John Mearsheimer who Leo shared is a great source of information.

Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity - Dune Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder. Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more. True, I get it if people are just too busy or don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a judgment but don't think it takes such extensive study either. The enlightened types like to be detached from the disputes and dichotomies of the common man, looking down at it all from a lofty place of transcendence. As Ram Dass said, part of awakening can be playing the role of form we are in - that is human. To be human, we've got to get down in the muck where the humanness is happening. Moral relativity is about understanding both sides but moral legitimacy is about determining the rightness of each side. Pluralism doesn't always mean neutralism. It's possible to see both sides of every contentious issue - that's a sign of intellectual maturity. But just because we can see both sides doesn’t mean we should live our life as though they both have equal merit. We have to further grapple with the rightness of each side or else we'd be neglecting a whole dimension of understanding if we just left it too “well I can see both sides which means both are equally right”. It’s good to understand that all concepts are relative and that none contain absolute truth, but this necessarily means that some concepts are more relatively truthful than others and by extension some actions are more relatively right than others. None of us live our lives as though all things are the same and all concepts are equally true - men can't have babies for example. We don’t drink bleach to wake us up, we order a coffee. When we want to go to somewhere we take a specific route, we don’t walk in a random direction and hope for manifestation to do its magic. Our daily choices reflect our reliance on relative truths as a fundamental aspect of our everyday life. We should be able to apply it to this conflict also. I can understand why a robber had to rob to feed his family but I can still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Hamas did what they did and still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Israel feels entitled to the land of Palestine and still claim it not to be right. Understanding and analysis of a situation does not mean justification and approval of it.

People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values. It's possible for people to have stage green talking points and positions whilst having a stage red tribalistic mode of being and disposition. Humans are complex.

Calm down Baba. Watch from 7 min 40 sec onwards.

More false claims perpetuating more death. No command centre found at shifa hospital - babies stripped from incubators put at risk with some dying at the expense of false intelligence. Even BBC can’t play along any longer. And now Israel are warning Gazans in the south to evacuate - to where exactly? Israel want all the land and that gets clearer and clearer by the day. The world has woken up to the situation.

Part of spiral dynamics growth is integrating lower stages in a healthy manner - not to dismiss lower stage truths of reality and frame fact as purely mythic fiction to be tossed to the bin. We can critique other societies that practice tyrannical forms of patriarchy but dismissing patriarchy completely can prove to be an error. People who have an allergic reaction to religion and tradition as archaic backward domains because their stage green liberal can often overlook the very freedom and value they provide. Present society liberals deconstruct the construct they feel failed them - modernity. People feel disillusioned and will either drop all constructs for anarchic post modernism or revert back to tradition in a regressive way for some semblance of order and as a shortcut to thinking due to the over thinking moral relativism brings about. Exhaustion. Part of integrating the past stages is to see the value in them. The following is interesting in showing some value healthy patriarchy can provide women: “The absence of patriarchal protection is more barbaric than its presence as it allows immoral, dangerous and unviable long-term prospects to plunder women at the peak of their beauty and fertility, sometimes even monetising them. In matters of women you have to ask yourself: does this practice make it easier or harder for sociopaths to access and exploit them? It's a net good if it makes it harder, and a net evil if it makes easier - even if that comes at the price of some of the woman's freedom. Feminism maximises female liberty thereby minimising her security - it's much harder to take advantage of women, sexually use them and monetise them in a patriarchal conservative society where daughters have less autonomy but are more protected, than in one where fathers are stripped of all authority and the woman makes her own choices. If the feminist experiment has taught us anything, it's that women being more emotionally inclined fall prey to the predatory few amongst men. The major recurring theme of clown world, as is true of all spiritual battles between good and evil, is that of inversion. Just as a demon would turn the holy cross upside down to mock the trinity, these unholy ideologies reframe protectiveness as oppressiveness in the battle to reframe vice as virtue and virtue as vice, because if all forms of control can be destroyed - even those which are benevolent and protective and act as a check and balance on destructive behaviour, then chaos can reign, and when chaos reigns civilization comes undone.”

A lot of the reasons for poor mental health are also due to urbanisation and the atomisation and sedentary lifestyle that brings. Urban centres are more pricey so financial stress and longer work hours to keep up is another. Additionally the sex and the city lifestyle that freedom brings. A article on Feminism: “Feminism always oversteps its bounds and unravels the society in which it presents itself. It tilts towards seeking independence from men failing to see their interdependence with them. In the absence of men, women must become men to handle life’s harsher realities. First generation feminism is a honeymoon phase, the best of both, because you see increased liberty, but haven’t undone the institutions of tradition you rally against but continue to benefit from. In the 1st gen female workforce participation increases, but isn’t saturated. The average man can still take care of his family on a single wage. Men are still chivalrous. You’re less religious, but you haven’t forgone it entirely yet. You’re less chaste, but still possess shame. You don’t come from broken families, and your birth rate isn’t depressed yet. So you have a present mother, father and many siblings. But it will be your generation that deprives your kids of the stability your parents gave you, because you will ignore their wisdom to be modern and free. Things they endured and tolerated and stayed together through and didn’t divorce over, you will divorce over. The familial social ties that regulate and serve to preserve marriages will disintegrate, as everybody becomes less religious, more promiscuous, and more materialistic. The west has shown the path of feminism not once, but twice. First with Rome, and today, with the cultural state of Europe and the Anglosphere. It always leads to ruin. No sufficiently advanced society can elevate women at the expense of men without declining + destroying itself. The path of your society will not be any different. You will not stop at the first wave. You will not learn from our mistakes. You will make the same mistakes and follow the same process. It's only in your foolish hubris you believe you're special and it'll be different for you. I see feminism as women selling their granddaughters down the line. So that she may choose to work, her granddaughter will be forced to work. So that she may choose to study out of vanity, her granddaughter will be required to study to survive. Today's women's choices are tomorrow's women's obligations. I always cringe when they talk about "the women that paved the way" as if they built something rather than dismantled something. They tell you they gave you freedoms, but the real freedom was theirs, you have no choice. Older women have sold younger women down the line, so they could have it all in their youths, then packaged it to younger women as freeing them from the oppressive yokes they lived under. Even though women in their time were happier, less stressed and didn't work as much/at all. Feminism doesn’t remove obligation from women, it simply changes the set of obligations to ones which are less equitable. This isn’t to say I don’t understand female resentment towards poor male leadership and excessive tyranny. But feminism is a false panacea for such ailments. In truth, most issues of tyranny are issues of low development. Less developed men tend to govern more with violence. They are less interested in your opinion or leveraging your feelings to get you to cooperate. They would simply command you, and scare you into compliance. It’s this you resent. Some patriarchies are excessive, but the alternative is worse. Limiting women's freedom and sexuality is the price of civilization. No regulation = no civilization. What we really need is a better answer to leas developed male tyranny than feminism, because feminism is too destructive. The answer to bad men or ‘patriarchy’ isn’t the absence of men but the presence of good men.”

@hundreth I was responding tongue in cheek and reframing just to show the nuance of the situation - that it’s not as simple as good guy vs bad guy or children of light vs dark as Bibi says. I agree with your points.

What purpose would it be for. I’m assuming if Palestinians are throwing rocks etc from the mosque and its to disperse them and any conflict between the far right Orthodox Jews who come there also.

You love to take a sentence and think you’ve got to the bottom of the message. To get to the bottom line requires reading the whole page of text. Daddy Abi didn’t tell me, international 3rd party organisations did. If we can’t trust Hamas or Israel due to bias we can look to these institutions or are they all wrong too?

It’s not complicated to be against occupation and apartheid. What is complicated is how to dismantle it without threatening security - that threat intensifies with more blood spilt and homes demolished. Israel has made a one state solution impossible and have no intention of a two state solution as it’s literally written in the Likud party’s charter. “The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samariawill not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party?utm_content=cmp-true When Israel uses from the river to the sea it’s about geographic sovereignty and freedom but when Palestinians use the slogan their genocidal terrorists. Why is it that one group are designated freedom fighters and a resistance and the other terrorist savages? Were the native Americans considered terrorists for resisting European settlers and later colonists and the new Americans? You can’t deny Palestinians a state via a two state solution and make it irrelevant by settler expansion, then subjugate a people to the point of bad blood and distrust which makes a one state solution also irrelevant as you’ve eroded the trust and fostered terrorism through decades of occupation and oppression. People saying they stand with Palestine doesn’t mean they stand against Israel - more so they stand with the ending of oppression and apartheid on the Palestinians. It doesn’t mean the eradication of Israel necessarily or of genociding Israelis. The same heart that wants the Jewish people to have a safe homeland, is the same heart that will feel it unjustified to expel and oppress the natives of that homeland to which they go. The only way in which the current treatment and way of life the Palestinians live can seem okay or justified is if one views them as inferior - a colonialist mindset which unfortunately still remains till today - a remanent of the civilise the savages mindset.

You end Hamas by ending their cause. Cut them off from their cause that is a resistance to a structure of oppression and occupation with factions of Islamist and political power hungry opportunists jumping on for the ride. Hamas use the resistance movement the same way bankers use social sentiments of environmental and social causes to drive the ESG movement which perpetuate their power and profits.

Israel created the barbaric violence of October 7th, in the same way it created the violence that will with absolute certainty come its way in retaliation for its actions in Gaza today. The official narrative makers always try to restart history at the moment of the last act of violence from Palestinians, because it is only by framing such violence as unprovoked that they can legitimize the idea that it’s possible to bomb a population into submission and obedience. But of course, it is not possible to bomb a population into submission and obedience. Every atrocity you inflict upon them will only increase their desire for revenge — a desire Israelis should sympathize with since it has consumed them and turned them into crazed genocide cheerleaders since October 7. But their desire for vengeance is only made possible by the false mainstream narrative that the attack came from nowhere, completely unprovoked. The actual crime that Palestinians are being punished for is refusal to submit. That’s all this conflict has ever been, from the very beginning. Palestinians refused to accept being thrown off their land and killed and forcibly displaced at the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, and that refusal has seen them hammered with tremendous amounts of violence and oppression from year to year and from decade to decade under the premise that it’s possible to bomb and tyrannize a population into obedience. Nothing will radicalize you toward violence faster than seeing your neighbors and loved ones ripped apart by military explosives supplied by a globe-spanning empire. Nothing will ensure further violent resistance more certainly than murdering Palestinian children by the thousands in plain view of everyone. Which means that nothing but restitution, reparations and return of land to the Palestinians will end this nightmare once and for all. - Caitlin Johnstone Did you know that since the United States brought its “war on terror” to Africa, terrorist attacks on that continent have increased by 75,000 percent? That’s right: 75, then three zeros, percent. I learned this neat little stat from a new article by journalist Nick Turse, who also notes that “according to the Pentagon, terrorist attacks in the Sahel region alone have resulted in 9,818 deaths — a 42,500% increase.” People have been documenting the way attempts to bomb terrorism out of existence actually creates more terrorism for many years. In 2010 Professor Robert A Pape wrote an article for Foreign Policy titled “It’s the Occupation, Stupid” about his study with University of Chicago which found that suicide bombings are the result not of Islamic fundamentalism but of foreign military occupations. Some notable excerpts: “More than 95 percent of all suicide attacks are in response to foreign occupation.” “As the United States has occupied Afghanistan and Iraq, which have a combined population of about 60 million, total suicide attacks worldwide have risen dramatically — from about 300 from 1980 to 2003, to 1,800 from 2004 to 2009.” “Over 90 percent of suicide attacks worldwide are now anti-American.” “Each month, there are more suicide terrorists trying to kill Americans and their allies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other Muslim countries than in all the years before 2001 combined. From 1980 to 2003, there were 343 suicide attacks around the world, and at most 10 percent were anti-American inspired. Since 2004, there have been more than 2,000, over 91 percent against U.S. and allied forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other countries.”

Same logic applied to dating would be for a incel to say its not like women were fond of him so might as well become misogynist which will only make them hate him further. The reality is that Israel put the Palestinian people in an impossible position. Of course they needed a strong retaliation. You can't turn the other cheek at decades of oppression and abuse by the Israeli regime, till you no longer have a cheek. The Middle East is no picnic - exactly why they will not stop resisting occupation and settlement expansion as to not invite more of it. This further is fueled by Islam, which is peaceful for the most part but isn't a pacifist religion either. Likewise, Israel do not want to deal with Hezbollah after failing to defeat them. So now that Hamas has responded, as it always was going to - you have to take the best of the worst options. That is what is happening, the resistance of occupation.Hopefully something good comes of it. Is there any guarantee? Of course not. We'll see what happens. Step 1: Destroy nations and displace tens of millions of people. Step 2: Wait for some of those people to hate you and want to fight back. Step 3: Use their desire to fight back as justification to repeat Step 1.

As we love color coding people so much what stage of development is this below: Israel is a nation and like many nations identifying too much with nationalism can be suffocating, limiting, divisive. We can respect a nation, but no people should live under oppressive apartheid like conditions. I don't like the fact that there is state terrorism whether it be Western or Eastern. Scary to live in such a world. There’s no better way to make people want to attack you in whatever way they can than bombing their neighborhoods, killing and displacing their loved ones, and dominating them with an oppressive military occupation. All of which Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for generations.

@Nabd Well said. National consciousness wasn’t a thing till Europeans brought it about. Even when the Brits left Africa they drew borders in and between tribal lands which caused much chaos, confusion and infighting over resources. Palestinians may have not had a nation yet they had a land - the lack of a nation state with a flag doesn’t justify the expulsion and establishment of a nation state with a flag by an outside group. Especially if that nation state is in the name of a minority of that land ie Jewish. By that logic the massacring of native Indians to establish America was justified - because they didn’t formally have a state with a flag inked in worded documents. Legal doesn’t always mean right. Native American tribes engaged in conflicts with European settlers and later with the United States as westward expansion occurred. Were they terrorists? Everything the Palestinians do can be framed as aggressive if people omit the base fact that they are occupied.

It is sad how they had to just leave their homes. The tension and persecution was in reaction to Israel forming and the nakba taking place - didn't happen in a vacuum. Israel performed operation magic carpet in 1948 air lifting as many Jews to Israel. Wonder what she did..