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@Lila9 Ariel Kallner, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, explained Israel’s goal behind the Gaza war. “Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 1948,” he said. The same sentiment was conveyed by Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, the man responsible for translating Israel’s declaration of war into an action plan: “We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly,” he said on October 9. Tutsis are cockroaches. We will kill you.” Arabs are like “drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” The first quote was a line repeated frequently by the Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines, a Rwandan radio station, which is largely blamed for inciting hatred towards the Tutsi people. The second is by former Israeli army Chief-of-Staff Gen. Rafael Eitan in 1983, speaking at an Israeli parliament’s committee. Rwanda’s hate-filled radio station operated for only one year (1993-94), yet the outcome of its incitement resulted in one of the saddest and most tragic episodes in modern human history: the genocide of the Tutsis. Compare “Radio Genocide” to the massive Israeli-U.S.-Western propaganda, dehumanizing Palestinians almost with identical language to that used by Hutus’ media.

When highly emotional peoples reasoning is disputed they often perceive this as invalidating their emotions. The deprivation of their “right to feel” because their opinion and its hasty conclusion is often founded upon an instinct or feeling rather than a deduction or investigation. @hundreth By law, people under occupation have the right to armed resistance which is denied to Palestinians but their are no rights for Israel to be doing things the way they are. Doesn't the Palestinian cause stand for much more than the isolated event of the Hamas attack? Of course they can't kill that many because it would cause the escalation of other fronts opening up and world wide condemnation and their biggest backer (US) pulling away. The slow, steady inhumane treatment of Palestinians to weaken them in every way through control is crippling in a way that isn't as evident and flagrant as the current operation.

@Nivsch @PurpleTree @hundreth @Vrubel What would you guys define as terrorism? And to follow up from that, do you condemn that terrorism? The global standard definition of terrorist is: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. If you are logically consistent, can you not see that terrorism can be committed by a individual, organisation or a state - it is only a matter of degree and scale, and that Israel commits terrorist acts. That of course doesn't call for the extermination of the actor as a whole (Israel or a organisation) but rather an extermination of the conditions that would terrorise a person or a country into terrorist actions. You critique the behaviours and actions, not the being itself to be put out of existence.

Yes exactly, it is easier to judge and discern a situation when emotions aren't as heavily involved. Emotion has its way of consuming people - there is not just a fog of war but the fog of emotion within a war that blinds you.

Yes, Hamas - not Palestinians. But why is it that Hamas is a terrorist organisation but Israel isn't a terrorist state. Why isn't there logical consistency. What is your definition of terrorism and do you condemn it in any of its forms whether it be by an individual, organisation or at a state level?

Israel does not follow the rules of engagement set out internationally. People can condemn and see the actions of Hamas as evil but its shocking how they can be complete Israel apologists, uncritical and hypocritical when it comes to Israels actions.

Israelis have been heavily propagandised by their own government. Bibi and nationalist factions have instilled fear into the population by otherising a population and putting them into conditions which bring forth terrorist elements. Fear is a bad adviser, bias a bad interpreter.

That’s the mentality that causes the issue. Unjust actions are made just through divine legitimacy - whether Islamist, Zionist or evangelical Christian. Gods chosen people are above criticism, and anyone who does criticise is an anti-demote.

Do you condemn terrorism (going be the below googled definition) ? Definition: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Genocide of innocents is within the realm of justice? If you take Hamas to represent all Gazans, then by your logic it could be taken that extremist Israeli politicians represent everyday Israelis. Their is no law for genocide or ‘defence’ through genocide - but there is law for an occupied people to resist even with arms. All countries have laws, most have the rule of law, and few are outlaws - Israel is one such case.

“War in the Middle East is inevitable because there’s not much time left for Israel to capitalize off of its privileged position in the Unipolar “Rules Based Order.” Israel was already being challenged internally by opponents of Netanyahu’s regime— & so there’s only international war crimes tribunals if a ceasefire is declared— there’s no reason for the Israeli State to draw down, as the long term prospects for the Zionist project diminish year by year. The hardliner Zionists believe themselves to be backed into a corner with its major defenders trending into domestic chaos, with a demographic shift radically against continual defense of the Zionist project. There will be no ceasefire because a ceasefire would mean the successful implementation of international law over a state that flagrantly flouters international law with the protection of the greatest flouter of international law, the United States. The only question is who else wants to go down with the ship. The only thing you can do as a Westerner is refuse to fight in or support any interference on the part of Western militaries into the chaos that is brewing. Israel is implementing its final solution. There cannot be a “deceleration” because the Israeli ruling class cannot allow itself to be tried in international courts for crimes against humanity. The only way the Israeli ruling class can avoid their fate is by turning this into a global conflict. They will probably succeed in doing so. “The West” (US + NATO) already declared War on the rest of the world. The rest of the world is just coming to realize that there is no peaceful alternative in consequence. Time’s running out for “The Rules Based Order”— & it is itself aware of this, which is why it has openly declared War upon the rest of the world. The only hope for the “West’s” global oligarchy is to bomb the rest of the world back into servile compliance with its hegemony. Russia proved that resistance is not futile, & so the rest of the world is becoming more capable every year of asserting its interests on the world stage. The War that is coming will be, perhaps, the worst one that the world has ever experienced— but when it is over, the Unipolar Oligarchy will be in the dustbin of history, & a new world will become possible.“

Some illuminating videos on the Israeli / Palestinian conflict. The two solutions (two state vs one state) seems to be hard to agree on as both have their flaws. Two state solution: If you connect the West Bank with Gaza in form of a corridor you cut Israel in two. Daily crossings increase the insecurity of both states as subversives and possible threats seep in. One state democratic solution: Palestinians demographically will be or end up being a majority to which Israeli's could feel threatened or will not allow to happen. Possible third solution: Two states but connect West Bank and Gaza via a highway as to not split Israel in two and avoid daily border crossings between states and the insecurity that comes with it.

As in spiral dynamics, stages of development are just that - a development. Not an imposition from others who have developed to that stage. Although, spiral stages are themselves in a hierarchy of their own so its natural to view a stage red society as inferior, but a mistake nonetheless. Other cultures shouldn't be interfered in by imposing cultural ideas from their own cultural stage. That robs them of their growth process, and what is imposed will try to be disposed of in rebellion. Lower stage societies view the struggles the West is going through and deduce that they are better than them, which entrenches further to their own stage. Maybe once the West comes out the other side of its current growth process and looks a lot more solid they can then contemplate its merits and be incentivised to develop towards it. These two videos show the psychology and perspective of how more traditional conservative societies view themselves as superior - in this case particularly from an Islamic lens. What multiculturalism has done it seems is clashed different perspectives, values and stages of growth towards each other in a pressure cooker. Each questioning the others validity, assumptions and way of life which brings about the current confusion, cognitive dissonance and identity crisis. Out of this friction evolution could bring us to our supreme identity which integrates them all together, but thats a lengthy and tumultuous process. Quotes on multiculturalism from Ken Wilber ''Multiculturalism is a noble, logocentric, and rational endeavour that simply misidentifies its own stance and claims to be not rational because some of the things it tolerates are not rational. But its own tolerance is rational through and through, and rightly so. Rationality is the only structure that will tolerate structures other than itself.'' ''The "multicultural movement," which claims a universal tolerance of all cultures freed from the "logocentric, rational-centric, Eurocentric" dominance and hegemony, is a step in the right direction, with all good intentions, but ends up being self-contradictory and finally hypocritical. It may claim to be "not rationalcentric," but in fact cultural tolerance is secured only by rationality as universal pluralism, by a capacity to mentally put yourself into the other person's shoes and then decide to honor or at least tolerate that viewpoint even if you don't agree with it. You, operating from a plural rationality might decide to tolerate the ideas of a mythic-believer; the problem is, they will not tolerate you – and, in fact, historically they would burn your tolerant tail at the stake in order to save your soul (whether your saviors be Christian, Marxist, Muslim,or Shinto).''

Israel can’t exists in its current form is what majority of people think, not that it shouldn’t exist at all. Elon Musk providing star link satellite connectivity to aid groups in Gaza and Israel throws a temper tantrum like a child not able to get what they want - complete blackout on its atrocities. “Israel will use all its means to prevent the use of Starlink satellites in Gaza“ Israel uses Palestinians as human shields - reported by an Israeli human rights group itself. https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields A lot of what passes for human shield in Gaza are just civilians in proximity due to it being one of the mostly densely populated places on earth.

“Israel Cut Off Gaza's Communications Because Murderers Don't Like Witnesses Israeli ground forces have ramped up activities in Gaza in what anonymous US officials are reportedly telling the press is a “rolling start” to the long-anticipated ground invasion. Israel has also concurrently crippled Gaza’s largest telecommunications service, which had been the enclave’s last remaining contact with the outside world after Israel knocked out all the others. Humanitarian organizations and mainstream press outlets now say they have lost communication with their contacts in Gaza in a level of information blackout we’re unaccustomed to seeing in modern times.” Caitlin Johnstone

Terrible night in Gaza with no connection - curious if Elon Musk will help with star link as he did with Ukraine? “Israel's motivation to launch a ground offensive into Gaza is driven by their humiliation caused by the Hamas offensive and is also driven by a desire for retribution. Fighting a war on this basis is not only a disaster for the Palestinian people but ultimately will led to the downfall of Israel, not least because the world is seeing how Israel has total disregard for civilian lives in Gaza leading to blatant war crimes. We are now at a major inflexion point because you can guarantee a resolution of the Palestinian question is now coming. Israel caused this by launching this offensive.” UN resolution for ceasefire had an overwhelming majority of countries in favour for it whilst Israel dismisses it - bad optics for Israel.

Conspiracies require a level of competence that are often lacking not only by the conspirers themselves, but by the many pawns needed across domains and fields to pull it off. What often looks like an orchestration of conspired events is usually opportunism. The powerful conspire after and around events rather than conspire events into existence.

With spiral dynamics its easy to believe that higher stage societies that are ‘developed’ are immune to visiting or being enveloped by ‘lower’ states of being. The human is still there with the whole buffet of emotions available to it. The structure of society doesn’t mean the content (human) within the structure is any different - human nature just manifests through the lens of that structure, in that tint of spiral dynamic colour. Just because a society is stage orange doesn't make it infallible or that you are guaranteed a win ie Taliban - Hezbollah and Hamas are much better equiped than Taliban. Israels Iron dome can only intercept 2000 at a time, Hezbolah have 150'000 rockets. They just need to over whelm the iron dome system with 2000 rockets, then can use precision missile wherever they wish in Israel. ''The Zulu army suffered anywhere from 1,000 to 3,000 killed. The battle was a decisive victory for the Zulus and caused the defeat of the first British invasion of Zululand. The British Army had suffered its worst defeat against an indigenous foe equipped with vastly inferior military technology.'' Also, the Israeli army are made up of mostly reservists. These aren't battle hardened individuals willing to confront an army of men in a tough terrain and hardened by their conditions, motivated to fight for freedom from those very hellish conditions they think Israel has put them in. Bibi seems to be dragging US and Nato into this to fight on his countries behalf and to entangle other powers into a proxy battle in the region. Hamas could probably be doing the same hoping Hezbollah will intervene and further possibly Iran. The extremes on both sides want more powerful players to do their fighting for them and their cause, fuelled by the military industrial complex and religious zeal of fulfilling prophecy only adding to it.

@Vrubel No one wants to be “under” anyone else and especially not in the fashion of an “occupation”. The fact this is so hard to understand shows the arrogance of Gods chosen people when that term is taken too literally.

Interesting analysis https://twitter.com/FromKulak/status/1717414661174223089 ''Israel can't really "win" with this invasion. Hamas may have 50-100k trained soldiers of some quality, and another 100-200k volunteers from Gazan males... Almost all of them acting as infantry. If Israel has a 5-1 or 10:1 kill:loss ratio (which with small consumer drones in an urban setting might be a tall order) that would completely shred a good chunk of Israel's 20-30k Non-reserve infantry, the majority of which has to be kept on other fronts to deter Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and potentially Egypt if things REALLY pop off. And Israel can't reconstitute its forces away from the American model of a 15% infantry Army, because they need all their technical processes and advanced weapons systems to deter those less advanced neighbors. The last time Israel suffered 1000s dead or 10s of thousands wounded and came away with a clear victory was the Yom Kippur War of '73, a defensive war fought against conventional armor. In the mire of urban fighting and attempted occupation there's a good chance they'd reach a point where politically and socially the Israeli population and soldiers won't accept any more... at which point they'd have to pull back, giving Hamas a massive political victory, tarnishing their prestige, and risking that an emboldened Hamas and radical population doesn't accept the cease fire, but periodically does raids on Israel every couple months. The Average age in Gaza is 18, with a low life expectancy. Ultimately Hamas knows any casualties they suffer will be replaced quickly. Israel by contrast can't take large casualties, its beleaguered secular Jewish population, despite being 40% of the population, suffers 80-90% of the cost of conscription on their sons and daughters and was already in a state of near revolt against the religious coalition in government. A brutal urban campaign that might quickly become the equivalent of a Vietnam could make many of these second passport holding jews emigrate, and could destroy the culture that allows conscription to function. Already large cross sections of Israeli men and women Fake religiosity, Marriages, or get bogus mental health diagnoses to escape the draft... and many that can't just emigrate. One military disaster could send the IDF or Israeli social demographics into a death spiral. The Rhodesian light infantry never significantly lost on the field of battle, but mere demographic and economic outmigration broke the Rhodesian state. There's a lot of concern that this could erupt into a wider regional war with Iran or even world war 3 if Russia got involved and things spiralled.... But another Major risk is Israel gets into a rolling low intensity fight it can't break off from for years such as Vietnam or Afghanistan or What the war on drugs is in central America and the worst American cities... There's a scenario where Israel never gets a major war where it can call on American support, and never gets a ceasefire where it can repair its social fabric... and instead Conscription and danger just bleed away the country of the upper-middle-class secular jews who drive its economy and fight its wars, back into the economies of Europe and North America, or onto even more foreign shores. Hamas and other islamists insist their strength is that they're faithful and don't fear death the way Israelis do... the truth is less romantic, their "strength" is they don't have better options or second passports to slip their children to first world countries away from warzones.''

Thats the point, Israel aren't kept in check by the US enough, and because of this have become ''a spoiled brat you're unable to say no to" which has grown up to be "a sociopath '' in the words of Rahma Zain. By IDF's logic, the mass shooting in Maine today would be tackled by bombing the whole place in order to eliminate him, or to eliminate a school shooter hidden among class rooms it would be to bomb the school. Nice propaganda putting Hamas and Isis together to villainize and delegitimise the Palestinian cause further. If we take spiral dynamics seriously and the framework of holism, nothing just happens by itself. Thats the kind of thinking which causes the problem to never be resolved. This ''deep connection'' is claimed by both sides rendering the debate zero sum, absolute and mutually exclusive. Thats been the problem with negotiations - all the offers involved offering Abu Dis, the village outside of Jerusalem - never the part of Jerusalem (East) where many Palestinians living in the muslim/christian quarter. They also insisted on maintaining three military outposts within West Bank which only further extends the security apparatus and control of Israel onto the so called autonomous Palestinian state. Did Palestinians reserve the same right to have military outposts in Israel?

@Karmadhi Exactly, the double standard and hypocrisy makes the West look even weaker and disingenuous in the eyes of the world. Israel hasn't asked a question it is still unwilling to answer: “what is the ultimate cause of the violence on October 7?” Losing the PR Campaign“ Israel's trying to undermine any claim to legitimacy that Hamas might have regarding why they carried out these attacks,' Ritter said. "You know, Israel is not winning the PR campaign globally, primarily because of the heavy-handed manner in which they've responded to the attacks. And people, when they dig into the attacks, are trying to make the claim that you can't cite self-defense when you're the occupier. The occupier cannot ever claim a right of self-defense from the occupied. And there's a larger debate going on right now about the history of Gaza, the history of the Israeli occupation, the history of abuse that’s transpired, etc.” There's no carte blanche ever for anybody to kill innocent civilians, and a lot of innocent Israeli civilians were killed. And I think it's imperative that Israel, like the United States after 9/11, instead of saying ‘we must exact our revenge’, to sit there and say, ‘how did this happen? Why did this happen and how can we prevent it from happening again?’ But in order to answer that question, you have to define the problem. Israel doesn't want to have that discussion, Netanyahu doesn't want to have that discussion, because the answer is: he is the problem. The right-wing policies of Israel is the problem. Zionism might be the problem.''

Good post OP. Most people condemn the Hamas attack, but it would be wise to condemn also what lead to it for terrorists aren't made so in a vacuum. This 'othering' from both sides will never bring peace, if there is any worthy war it is to go to war with the conditions that may corrupt you into terrorism. Terrorists are people whose conscience is clouded by trauma caused by the terror of the conditions they find themselves in. That trauma becomes brutally manifest in terrorist reaction to actions and conditions imposed on them by people who claim to be the victims. Which occupier in history has ever claimed to be victim? Did the British claim victimhood when colonising the planet or America when subjugating the red Indians with their superior capability. An Isreali spokesperson called Palestinains 'animals'. If you cage people into un livable hellish conditions like animals, next to the occupiers of their land who seem to be living in heaven like conditions, they will lash out like animals to free themselves of that cage. The reason they elected Hamas was because in extreme conditions with no hope in site that is a last resort. PLO in West Bank were cozying up to Israeli sentiments and not doing anything about the settlements, they were incompetent and capitulated in the Palestinians eyes. Any chance for a two state solution becomes increasingly unviable by settlements coming in and not only settling in one area but in a Swiss cheescake like fashion scattered, making it even more impossible to ever regain those territories in a deal. If Palestinians are so 'savage' and 'underdeveloped' as many people have put it, why would they feel comfortable to live amongst them and be flanked by them? Any proposal fell short of fairness and the meeting of minimum standards set by international law. Hamas don't have anything to do with the West Bank - and the West Bank is Israel's proof to show the Palestinians all over including Gaza that theres a scenario in which they can have a just peace and existence but the situation in West Bank opposes that completely - theres still settler violence, expansion, increased checks and control of movement, apartheid like conditions. The burden of proof is on the one with control of the situation. It is also false to conflate technological and economic capability with character or consciousness. I understand we like to generalise entire regions into spiral dynamic colours for brevity's sake and it does serve a purpose, but its much more complex than that. You can be developed in one domain and not in others, and their are major differences amongst generations within a society. People would be surprised to know that the younger generation of Palestinians may be more closer to those in the West in their perspectives - even in the West the whole Okay Boomer meme is an example of the chasm in spiral stage and generational development. The West claims moral development and sets out human rights and laws, yet fails to adhere to it themselves which is made evident in the double standards of the media, selective morality and curtailing of freedom of speech - what actually exists is convenient speech. When freedom of speech is given, your freedom of reach is cut when that speech goes against vested interests. The world watches this and becomes disillusioned, even Westerners themselves are and exist in a cognitive dissonance within the West - for what their civilisation claims isn't what is delivered. And this makes the world more dangerous, for if the 'developed' West don't follow what they preach why should they? Do past historical experiences and injustices trump present day laws including the justice system? When school shooters in the West are among the classrooms does it ever come to mind to bomb the whole school?

“It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,” Guterres said at a UN Security Council meeting on the Israel-Hamas war, which erupted when the terror group ravaged Israeli border communities, killing some 1,400 people, the vast majority of them civilians. “The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing,” Guterres said. The nerve of people to say the Palestinians are less developed and need to be occupied because they are so, when the actions of the occupier hinder their development. Just as how predatory Western corporations hinder the development of developing countries to maintain the profits from cheap labour and resources, and when governments who aren't in the interest of the West come to power or may come to power, they are coup'ed and interfered with covertly. The nerve then to deflect any criticism of your governments actions (Israel) by bringing out the Holocaust or anti-semite card, just as muslim extremists bring out the Islamophobia card or black people the racist card. The occupier is in the offensive position from the get go, any action taken for self determination in what was once your own land is the defensive position - defensive resistance. Just as someone resists the rapist in defence, Palestinians resist the rape of their land and dignity. If someone comes into your house, demotes you to the basement and controls your food, water, electricity and free movement which puts them at a leveraged position in negotiation, then has the nerve to propose and negotiate how much of your house you can have, especially if that proposal is unfair, restrictive and doesn't meet the minimum requirement set by international law, what do you expect?

@DawnC Were the Palestinians a barbaric regime when they got occupied? As Lina shared above via Mohamed Hadids example, Jews were accepted as refugees and in return they get second class treatment on their own land. What are the conditions that cause the lack of development? That needs to be rectified. How are they meant to develop when Israel hinders their development via siege and blockade. https://press.un.org/en/2022/gaef3574.doc.htm https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza Warfare is messy, especially urban warfare. This reaction from Israel only unifies the sunni-shia against them including a majority of the world and fracturing Israeli society itself also. Thats why their is no military solution to this, they may need to react to appease the angry Isreali's in a show of doing something, but then restrain themselves and try to solve the situation peacefully. If Hamas and their actions represent the state of Palestinian society which is barely a functional democracy, would US foreign policy reflect the state of American society which is much more functional democracy representing the people. Should we conflate the values/morality of US foreign policy and industry interest with the values/morality of its people?