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You end your comment by sarcastically saying it all falls on Israelis when I literally started my comment by saying of course not everything is Israels fault, just that a lot is. Palestinians do have their flaws and faults, especially Hamas. Taking responsibility is great, but its delusional to take responsibility to such a degree as to not stop a outside agent making your life harder than it has to be and making you play life on hard mode. Not every one's a self help alpha entrepreneur with a hustler mentality or like Andrew Tate who assumes everything is his fault and he'll be the one to fix it lol. For some outlier men that fire under their ass motivates them but for a lot they crumble - especially a society at scale. Sure the Jews may have made a Singapore, they have done remarkably well wherever they've gone and good for them. But that's not the point - that's just pure whataboutism. Having superior capabilities doesn't entitle one group to another groups subjugation - that's a colonial mindset if that is what you inferred. Yes, they erected borders due to what you call attacks but was for them defensive resistance. The audacity lies in considering it acceptable for one group to take the land of another, with whom they lived mostly well for centuries, and were even protected by from European pogroms and persecution. To then engage in negotiations regarding the land they seized from that group, determining how much they will claim and then gaslighting any resistance as barbaric savage terrorism and making them feel guilty for the sins of the Holocaust which weren't theirs to begin with. They are then further gaslighted and labeled anti-Semitic for this when they themselves are semites. How dare they resist, the Palestinians should just be peaceful in their blockaded strip of land where they were once given a controlled amount of calories called starvation+ as to be fed just enough to not die but not in excess as to be strong to resist. And the other Palestinians in West Bank should be at peace with the encroachment of their land via settlement expansion. They should be at peace with their subjugation and humiliation, we should give them the power of now so they can learn the first step to peace is accepting the moment. The Zulus of South Africa, the Mau Mau of Kenya, the Vietnamese, the Afghanis, the Algerians - all should have just been at peace with their settlers and imperialists who they resisted against successfully instead.

@hundreth @Lila9 Of course not everything is Israels fault, but a lot is. How do economies grow? Basic business is trading goods and services. Does Gaza have this right to create goods and services to be provided across its border and back? A key part of motivating people to work is a return on that work. What can they do with this money they earn, can they travel and see the world and have holidays? Can they shop and buy from a buffet of online shopping and have it come across the border? What incentive do they have to work if they won't be able to do anything with the money, none of their dreams can even have the chance of becoming fulfilled. Even if they have the skills, those skills are capped and limited by the materials they are provided - which are limited by the blockade. The first thing they must do is break free of their situation. Have they tried the avenues of protest, yes the march of return in 2018 which failed. Has the international community tried economically pressuring Israel, yes through the BDS boycott movement which is being shut down with anti-boycott laws, 2 state solution is just a pipe dream carrot dangled in front of Palestinians all the while settlements keep expanding in what would be there state which would make it impossible for them to remove (especially settlers as they are the far right orthodox kind). So what are they left to do? And then the Gazans are visited every few years periodically by the IDF for 'mowing of the lawn' or 'cutting the grass' to slowly weaken them and their morale. Death by a thousand cuts to pass under the radar of the international community. In today's world you can't just wipe out a mass of people without being sanctioned, condemned or starting all out war. The population has grown despite their conditions and hardships - not because Israel is benevolent to them and allows them to live well with good intent. Just think, 10'000 people dead and the whole world has protested against Israel, diplomatic ties being cut, Israel's own allies even speaking against Israels actions. Imagine if it was 50'000 or 100'000 dead, that is suicidal for Israel politically, economically and existentially. That's why they don't just go wipe them off in one go, but in a slow manner by making the conditions unlivable or hoping the expel themselves into Egypt/Jordan. ''The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable… therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. —Likud Party Platform, 1977'' When likud party members share this sentiment and have it in their founding document (from the river to the sea) their not speaking genocidally and only about geographic sovereignty but when the Palestinians who are actually oppressed and occupied use it they can only be referring to genocide and not their own emancipation, freedom and dignity to exist? The word 'occupation' is like a salt to a wound to those who can't seem to stomach a 'developed' country in the 21st century capable of such a thing. Leaving a place but controlling most aspects of it isn’t leaving. Occupying doesn't necessarily mean I'm sitting on your lap taking up all your personal space. If I left your house but controlled your ability to come and go, what was delivered to it, could access your internet and telephone lines and won’t even let you into your garden (for them they can’t use their own sea properly to fish and feed themselves) - that isn’t leaving them alone, its occupying from a distance. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-destroying-gaza-s-fishing-sector Gaza and the West Bank are literally called occupied territories by: The British government- https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/the-occupied-palestinian-territories The European council on foreign relations - https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/opt/ The US - https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/ Wiki - The Palestinian territories are the two regions of the former British Mandate for Palestine that have been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, namely the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has referred to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as "the Occupied Palestinian Territory"

The US fled Afghanistan embarrassingly and have lost Ukraine to Russia - both under Bidens term. He also is probably sick of the comments of him being senile and weak from the public and so its not only his ego that wants to assert some dominance but the empire itself. ''To freeze Ukraine in Europe, the US Hegemon will need an Israeli win in Gaza - perhaps at any and all costs - to maintain even a vestige of its former glory. But can Israel achieve victory any more than Ukraine can? Tel Aviv may have already lost the war on 7 October as it can never regain its facade of invincibility. And if this transforms into a regional war that Israel loses, the US will lose its Arab vassals overnight, who today have a Chinese and Russian option waiting in the wings. The Roar of the Street is getting louder - demanding that the Biden administration, now seen as complicit with Tel Aviv, halt the Israeli genocide that may lead to a World War. But Washington will not comply. Wars in Europe and West Asia may be its last chance (it will lose) to subvert the emergence of a prosperous, connected, peaceful Eurasia Century.''

Israel doesn't allow Palestinians a nation to be protected under in the first place. When you're in the play your emotions can consume you to the point actions are taken that aren't even in your best interest. A lot of the time, it takes a dispassionate look at the situation to come up with the most compassionate solution to it. It's in Israels own interest to not do what its doing now. Israels image and support worldwide has taken a huge hit, the economy will suffer including tourism and the potential for actual anti-semitism has never been higher. Hamas will only gain more recruits and come back again. Even Israels own allies and media supporters aren't able to be as biased in Israels favor due to social media exposing it. Some of us may be watching from the side line but we won't be clapping and cheering at the death or destruction we see unlike Israeli settlers at Sderot cinema:

Fear is a bad adviser, bias a bad interpreter. Neither seek truth but seek information to confirm their versions of truth. Likewise, I would side with the British against a expansionist supremacist ideological war machine wanting to rampage the European continent. In Israel/Palestine's cause they Palestinians don't have such intentions and the false equivocation of the two is a sneaky tactic used to de-legitimize the Palestinian cause. If the Palestinians were so bad, evil and in the wrong - people from the Israeli side wouldn't feel the need to refer to Hamas as Hamas-ISIS or Nazi's in order to justify their actions in Gaza today. They only do this to make a false association and because propaganda is all they have when the don't have the truth of justice or international legalities on their side. Saying all that I can also see the side of the Israeli's. Moral relativism and a mature mind allows us to see all sides, but moral legitimacy and a mature mind can also see whats more just. If the basic premise of Israel occupying the land of the Palestinians is omitted, then every subsequent point of discussion falls flat. Do you consider Palestinian land / territory as occupied?

The flaw of religion and the way its practiced is that it takes myth as literal and a description of historical events (of their prophets) as a prescription for a present where it no longer works - principles that are more timeless can always be used but practices not. The flaw of secularism isn't so much in the state giving up religion to be a neutral governance system as it is the signal this sends socially to the people that religion doesn't hold value and them in turn giving it up - and not replacing that void with any structure to guide them and instead living entirely in the subjective world of moral relativism or scientific materialism with no spiritual depth. In both cases, it isn't so much the state or the religion itself that tends to be the problem but how the people use, interpret and react to them. A secularism that leads people to indulging the subjective world unhinges people from the biological reality they exist in. We can't debase ourselves from reality, the human body is a form through which the formless lives, the mould of our meatsuits allows spirit to unfold, the skeletal structure allows states of being to be. We won't be able to experience the formless without form or states of being without structure. Sure, these things have their flaws. Moulds become moldy, structures become rickety, forms become frigid, and base reality becomes a basement of dark ignorance when not used for what it is - a base to jump from to the heights of spirit. Its funny because secularism has sort of given rise to three splintered extremes. The dogmatically religious, the scientific materialist and the subjective moral relativist where all is fair game in the law of attraction, manifestation and identifying however you so please. - The dogmatically religious = as a result of too much confusion that moral relativity can bring, the flood of information technology supplies and the excess subjectivity wokism puts on display - many people are regressively returning to religion (in its literal form) almost as mental-spiritual refugees. They seek refuge from a dazed world in that which never changes - dogmatic religion. Religion and tradition become anchors in a sea of excess. - The scientific materialist = science and rationality became a new religion but one which scorched life with a materialist lens looking at the surface of life but blind to any depth to it. And because Being is depth, people who have and deny any depth to life or themselves will never be fulfilled by source. Rationality includes knowing when not to be - in matters of heart and spirit. -Wokies = they take the domain and world of spirit and subjectivity and missapply it to objective realty denying objective reality all together. Its not that a spiritual subjective world doesn't exist where probably worlds exist that defy the laws of nature we find on this planet - but they deny that they do live on this planet and under its laws. They do not honor the form in which they have incarnated. It's not so much that religion and science are on different paths but on parallel ones trans-versing the same reality - hopefully to converge one day.

As Elon Musk said they can't take actions in defeating Hamas that only create a Hamas 2.0. With scenes like this and with young fighting age men with no future from a blockaded small strip of land what else are they to do but take up arms to break free of the cage. The slave revolter's of the past weren't called terrorists because people actually could understand what their resisting against.

Politics and power can tend to draw the worst of society to it and draw out the worst aspects of otherwise good people once they occupy powerful political positions. People need to de-personalize critique of the political entities that run their countries. For example when we critique Israel's actions it is taken as a personalized attack on the Israeli people. Caitlin Johnstone wrote on the above video now going viral: ''That such a horrible person could climb his way to the highest echelons of the world’s most powerful government — working on Palestinian affairs no less — illustrates an important point about the US empire and what it is. There are no barriers stopping such creatures from rising to the top of that power structure, just the opposite in fact — they get an express lane to the top. That’s why bloodthirsty swamp monsters like John Bolton, Lindsey Graham, Victoria Nuland and Elliott Abrams find themselves so intimately involved with US policymaking. That’s the true face of the US empire, right there. That’s the empire at its most honest. Not dressed up in affable charm and slick PR work, but sneering and hurling racist invective at immigrants who are just trying to do their jobs in peace. Not performing carefully rehearsed faces of compassion for the Palestinians who are being “tragically” and “unintentionally” killed as “collateral damage” in Israel’s war of “defense” against Hamas, but staring right into the camera and saying “If we killed 4,000 Palestinian kids, you know what? It wasn’t enough.” It’s only when you see clearly that Israel is just an arm of the same empire that’s been murdering people by the millions around the world with nonstop invasions, bombing campaigns, proxy conflicts, starvation sanctions and CIA coups that you understand that, yes, Israel really is exactly as evil as it appears to be, and its behavior in Gaza is exactly what it looks like. The US empire backs Israel for the same reason it backs most of the world’s dictatorships: because a globe-spanning empire can only be held together by nonstop violence and tyranny. Israel and other US-aligned states in the middle east are like the chair and the whip of a lion tamer — weapons used to violently abuse the populations of a crucial geostrategic region into compliance. It suits the empire perfectly to have a nuclear-armed government which exists in a constant state of war in the middle east governed by officials who speak English with American accents and interests which are reliably in alignment with those of the United States.''

Yeah, if we can’t even agree on the basic facts of the situation which are omitted any further discussion won’t make sense. @Lila9 @Nivsch Leaving a place but controlling most aspects of it isn’t leaving. If I left your house but controlled your ability to come and go, what was delivered to it, could access your internet and telephone lines and won’t even let you into your garden (for them they can’t use their own sea properly to fish and feed themselves) - that isn’t leaving them alone. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-destroying-gaza-s-fishing-sector Gaza and the West Bank are literally called occupied territories by: The British government- https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/the-occupied-palestinian-territories The European council on foreign relations - https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/opt/ The US - https://www.state.gov/reports/2016-report-on-international-religious-freedom/israel-and-the-occupied-territories/israel-and-the-occupied-territories-the-occupied-territories/ Wiki - The Palestinian territories are the two regions of the former British Mandate for Palestine that have been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, namely the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has referred to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as "the Occupied Palestinian Territory"

A lot of the Israeli leadership seem to be extreme. If Israel is a democracy and democracy is meant to be a system which is for the people, by the people and representative of the people then what does that say? A compiled list of extreme statements said by Israeli politicians and people with positions of power or prestige: https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/fighting-amalek-in-gaza-what-israelis Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, 19 November: “I agree with every word of Giora Eiland in this article [in which Eiland called for targeting “the entire Gaza population” and causing “severe epidemics” to break out there]” Advisor to Defence Minister Gallant, former head of National Security Council and former IDF operations chief Giora Eiland, 19 November: “Israel is not fighting a terrorist organization but against the State of Gaza. The State of Gaza is indeed under Hamas leadership, and this organization managed to mobilize all the resources of its state, the support of the majority of its citizens, and the absolute loyalty of its civil administration, around Sinwar’s leadership, while fully supporting his ideology. Minister for Agriculture and former Head of the Shin Bet Avi Dichter, 11 November: “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba. From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war—as the IDF seeks to do in Gaza—with masses between the tanks and the soldiers … Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end”

My guess is that during war time both sides will be too consumed by emotion to unlearn any hatred in the midst of it. Bruises heal if we stop hitting them so I first the conflict needs to stop, then with cooler heads and hearts both sides need to see that hating the other doesn't serve either of them. De-radicalising the collective is a big question with many factors . The simplest thing that comes to mind would be to not be in radically extreme environments. For Israel not feeling like they exist surrounded by threats, for Palestinians not living under an oppressive occupied apparatus.

So when the Zulus resisted the British or the Kenyans or the Vietnamese against the Americans which all ended up in them leaving - that was all because they were racist? If a burglar comes to my house and i defend myself against them its probably only because I'm racist? Frivolous use of the anti-semite word has cheapened it. We can't blame everything on it just like Muslims can't use the Islamophobia label to shut down criticism. It's better for neither to live under the other but in a secular state or their own if they can't live side by side.But if we'r gonna go there, historically whats the track record? Jews lived peacefully over all under the muslims, the Jews were protected and fled to the muslims when they were being prosecuted in Christian Europe which ended in the climax that is the holocaust. What has Israel done with its power and muslims living under the Jews? They've allowed settlers to encroach their lands in the West Bank and displace them further.

Because the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank do have a problem with Israel governing / occupying them. I didn't mean Hamas are green but Israel or the West which you also think are more developed or closer to stage green. My point is they can still be terrorists and tribal but from that stage. For so much talk about logic a lot of people can't seem to see cause and affect and establish a chain of events that lead to October the 7th or how Israels current actions will logically recruit more member for Hamas as Elon Musk rightly pointed out You think Israelis are developed because they believe in evolution and the idea that we are a family with monkeys - yet a lot of Israeli's don't see Palestinians as their own family and cousins to the point they propagandize their kids into genocidal language towards them like below: Does that seem logical, evolved and developed? You misunderstood as you did the other points. If a country or people are developed does that give them the right to rule other countries or people who aren't developed? Are the Japanese more developed than Israel? Should they be allow to govern Israel?

So that gives another group of people the right to govern and rule them? Sounds colonial to me. It is possible to be a stage green terrorist. You can have stage green values, talking points and hold those positions yet have a stage red heart, state of being and disposition. Just as America can have a white house and yet a black heart. ''Oh look how good our liberty, feminism and democracy is, - lets go around the world overthrowing governments and starting wars in the name of it.'' People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values. Maybe the whole Arab world should just give up to Israel as the supreme rulers because their so 'developed'. Maybe the Japanese or Singaporeans should rule the world because their societies are very orderly, clean and safe compared to everywhere else.

Israel never wanted or believed in a two state solution. This is in their charter. They won't compromise on West Bank or Gaza and will keep occupying, encroaching and suffocating the Palestinians till they expel themselves or wither away from poor living conditions. Israel denies them their past, makes their present dire, and kills any future hope for them. “The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” - https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party?utm_content=cmp-true “We must expel Arabs and take their place. Up to now, all our aspirations have been based on an assumption – one that has been vindicated throughout our activities in the country – that there is enough room in the land for the Arabs and ourselves. But if we are compelled to use force – not in order to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev or Transjordan, but in order to guarantee our right to settle there – our force will enable us to do so.” - Ben Gurion ( First prime minister of Israel ) https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2013/04/06/the-ben-gurion-letter/ The change also needs to come from a paradigm shift within and from the Israeli side. Are you willing to see this? The audacity for someone to come to your house and then negotiate with you how much of it you can have due to their narcissistic entitlement to it. Some of her words: ''I want to have for the Jewish nation the promised land from the Bible. From the Euphrates (river in Iraq) to the Nile (in Egypt), and I'm sure it will be. Even parts of Syria, Iraq even Iran. Many people believe in it.''

As you say yourself, only after the Arabs started resisting - resisting what? Occupation and oppression. That is their right. I found this video very interesting on the 6 day war and possible causes to it. From what I've read they weren't offered true sovereignty or control of their borders. That's where they would have issue. The audacity for someone to come to your house and then negotiate with you how much of it you can have, and the part that you do have you don't even get full control over lol. Only people with zero dignity or self respect could concede to such offers. How are Palestinians offered a state but without their own army or control of their borders, that's not offering a state but a land that is still occupied. Occupation doesn't just mean Israelis sitting on Palestinians laps, it can also include control of such basic rights that extend to any state.

@Lila9 Of course they would rather live in Israel than the Palestinian areas because those areas are blockaded and occupied to the point of terrible living conditions. - How does your economy develop if exports of produce and commercial goods from Gaza are banned or severely restricted? -Since 2000, Israel has prevented students in Gaza from traveling to study at universities in the West Bank, some of which offer fields of study and degrees not available in Gaza. According to a report from Haaretz newspaper, between 2000 and 2012 Israel let just three Gazans travel to study at universities in the West Bank, all of whom had received US government scholarships. - In early 2006, Dov Weisglass, then a senior advisor to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, explained that Israel’s policy towards Gaza was designed “to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.” - In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army.

Interesting and likely but only up to an extent. We can see enough with our own eyes from social media and no it’s not all Pallywood. Even if all the men who die are ‘combatants’ it still leaves over 7’000 women and children civilians.

@Twentyfirst He's good but I feel too optimistic on the one state solution. Israel wouldn't allow it to happen , especially after whats happened. Too much distrust and bad blood. If there is a one state it wouldn't be allowed to be democratic due to Palestinians outnumbering the Israeli's. A settlement leaders reaction to a two state solution : Some of her words: ''I want to have for the Jewish nation the promised land from the Bible. From the Euphrates (river in Iraq) to the Nile (in Egypt), and I'm sure it will be. Even parts of Syria, Iraq even Iran. Many people believe in it.''

More children died in Gaza in the last month than all the wars in the world for the last three years combined. John Mearsheimer who Leo shared is a great source of information.

Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity - Dune Believing you can get rid of violent resistance groups with bombs is like believing you can get rid of a bruise by punching it harder. Bombing them only nurtures the very conflict Israel seek to eradicate - it legitimizes and enables factions of resistance even more. True, I get it if people are just too busy or don't feel knowledgeable enough to make a judgment but don't think it takes such extensive study either. The enlightened types like to be detached from the disputes and dichotomies of the common man, looking down at it all from a lofty place of transcendence. As Ram Dass said, part of awakening can be playing the role of form we are in - that is human. To be human, we've got to get down in the muck where the humanness is happening. Moral relativity is about understanding both sides but moral legitimacy is about determining the rightness of each side. Pluralism doesn't always mean neutralism. It's possible to see both sides of every contentious issue - that's a sign of intellectual maturity. But just because we can see both sides doesn’t mean we should live our life as though they both have equal merit. We have to further grapple with the rightness of each side or else we'd be neglecting a whole dimension of understanding if we just left it too “well I can see both sides which means both are equally right”. It’s good to understand that all concepts are relative and that none contain absolute truth, but this necessarily means that some concepts are more relatively truthful than others and by extension some actions are more relatively right than others. None of us live our lives as though all things are the same and all concepts are equally true - men can't have babies for example. We don’t drink bleach to wake us up, we order a coffee. When we want to go to somewhere we take a specific route, we don’t walk in a random direction and hope for manifestation to do its magic. Our daily choices reflect our reliance on relative truths as a fundamental aspect of our everyday life. We should be able to apply it to this conflict also. I can understand why a robber had to rob to feed his family but I can still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Hamas did what they did and still claim it not to be right. I can understand why Israel feels entitled to the land of Palestine and still claim it not to be right. Understanding and analysis of a situation does not mean justification and approval of it.

People who say they're developed because they aren't as tribal as undeveloped people can also be just as tribal - they just re-tribalise around different values. It's possible for people to have stage green talking points and positions whilst having a stage red tribalistic mode of being and disposition. Humans are complex.

Calm down Baba. Watch from 7 min 40 sec onwards.